An introduction


I have been told that since I haven’t read the Koran, I should not comment on it. To add on this I have also been told to read books by Muslims on Islam because atheists are biased and know zilch about Islam. Now most Muslims writing on Islam write in Arabic, the language of their dog, and yours truly doesn’t have the time nor the patience to learn Arabic since I have no intention of wooing a girl in Arabic :-D, English does it for me.

It is for this reason that I introduce a great friend of mine who spends time getting us videos by Muslims on Islam. Please enjoy. My friend is called Mike just so you know.

Errors in the perfect Koran

Islam is a religion of peace

Stupidity in Islam[ I have no better title for this]

Belief in god: liberating or prohibiting

Some things about the Koran

And lastly as a bonus, a post from my friend John

Too stupid for Christianity, try Islam

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

72 thoughts on “An introduction

  1. Daniela says:

    Oh well, as long as you have not intention of wooing a girl in Arabic, no need to learn it -:)!

    Like

  2. Joe 'Blondie' Manco says:

    Surely then it is only fair that atheists request of the theologians and apologists of Christianity and Islam that they stop mouthing off on topics that aren’t the domain of their respective fields. For example – cosmology, abiogenesis, the evolution of life, man’s place in nature and the universe, morality, history, reproduction, end of life issues, sexuality, law, civil rights, all areas of scientific enquiry bar none, and pretty much every other topic that has ever existed.

    A man can dream.

    Like

  3. john zande says:

    Mike has become the go to man!

    Like

  4. Mordanicus says:

    Does one need to have read all harry potter books in order to argue that magic/lord voldemort/hogwarts does not exist?

    Like

  5. tildeb says:

    Regarding the first link about contradictions, it is important to understand how muslims get around this problem. What is used is called the doctrine of abrogation. This allows a later sura to ‘clarify’ a previous one, but because the sura’s are not in chronological order, it means establishing which one was written last matters a very great deal. And this is where the intentional deception of non muslims so easily occurs (I’m talking to you, apologetic and tolerant liberals of the West). For example, islam as a religion of peace is presented with sura references that show the koran to be filled with all kinds of claims for peace and tolerance and love. See? It’s a religion of peace because scripture tells us it is.

    So what’s the problem?

    Well, the kicker comes in the form of abrogation, where we soon find out that these references can be abrogated by later suras… specifically by sura 9:5, more commonly known (and widely used as a justification by violent jihadists) as the verse of the sword.

    What this means is that the doctrine of islam can indeed fully justify violence done in its name based on the koran, the perfect word of god, doncha know. That’s why it takes less than the shake of a stick to get a significant minority of muslims from any country marching and demonstrating their advocacy to call for the death penalty to those perceived to ‘insult’ islam, who insult the ‘perfect word of god’.

    I think it’s important to understand how and why this motivation to become violent in the name of islam is very much a central tenet of the religion itself and not (as is so often portrayed in western secular liberal democracies) the actions of a fringe element, extremists who do not represent the true believer, a few ‘bad apples’ who give the moderate majority a bad name.

    The fact of the matter is that the religion itself as a doctrine is fundamentalist and this is why it effortlessly creates such a large pool of what others perceive to be ‘idiots’ and ‘terrorists’ who seem – amazingly – to have followers who pay attention to so many ludicrous claims and actually take them seriously. In islamic terms, these ‘idiots’ and ‘terrorists’ are adhering more closely to the perfect word of god and so are demonstrating that they are actually ‘good’ muslims compared to those who respect the values of western liberal secular democracies and mitigate their religious motivations that are antithetical to these values. These ‘moderate’ folk are actually ‘bad’ muslims, and – like fallen catholics and evangelicals everywhere – I’ve never met a ‘bad’ muslim that I didn’t like. It’s the good ones we need to worry about.

    Like

  6. tildeb says:

    Just a heads up that my comment has gone into moderation because I’ve included two links. The first link was not closed properly, which should have happened at the end of the ‘doctrine of abrogation’. Sorry about that. The second link is fine (the Verse of the Sword).

    Like

  7. paarsurrey says:

    Quran is not a big volume book; it consists of less than total 80000 Arabic words; if we don’t count the repetitive words used then the total vocabulary used is only 2000 words. One may start learning Quran by knowing these words and with this one can learn Arabic language also.
    If one does not have time ; the translations in English are also available that provide the original text in Arabic, side by side the English translation.
    One may start it from the following link:

    http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1&region=E2

    No compulsion; information provided for those who have interest in reading and understanding Quran.

    Like

    • Mike says:

      paarsurrey I really like and appreciate the way you engage discussing. I must admit, I haven’t seen a “moderate” Muslim so far engaging like the way you do.

      Unfortunately Islam is not the religion you are trying to advocate, not because I don’t like it, or because I have been indoctrinated to hate it, but it is because Muslims themselves have shown it to be anything but a peaceful religion.

      I hate to do a self propaganda here, but if you visit my site here on WordPress, namely beliefdelusion.wordpress.com and dig down you will see many posts, mostly video posts, that Muslims themselves (thus not me) show the whole world how intolerant and violent, and sometimes childish, Islam is.

      I am willing to debate with you, I do read Arabic, and I tried reading the Quran but it didn’t make sense to me.

      Please, see my blog and see the blog posts I have published the last 2 months.

      Like

      • makagutu says:

        Mike you need not apologize for advertising your blog here.

        As long as it helps to the education of paarsurrey, it’s a good thing 😛

        Like

        • paarsurrey says:

          So Mike and makagutu apologize/preach for Atheism together on this blog. Mike just got disappeared from the scene after the advice from makagutu.
          @ Mike
          Is Atheism a religion now?

          Like

          • makagutu says:

            This is my blog. If you want to advertise your site, go ahead. How does one advertising his blog on a friendly blog make it a religion.
            Your deductive skills are way below average, my good friend!
            And in case you missed it on the about page, this blog belongs to Makagutu to write whatever is his fancy. You have no right whatsoever to determine the content of this blog, unless again your intention is to test my patience!

            Like

          • Mike says:

            My friend, No, I believe you got it wrong. I am in no means affiliated to my friend Makagutu. We hardly know each other, just as you hardly know me. Besides, the reason for my “silence” is that I was away from home for the past 9 days on a business trip with little connection to Internet (actually it costed 3.5 euros per 1 MB!!!) hence my silence. I came back yesterday and I am still suffering from the Jetlag 🙂

            I think I can answer your question on behalf of my friend makagutu here: No Atheism is not a religion and will never be. It is the lack of belief in such hypothesis because there is no evidence to support it.

            I like the way however you are interested in discussing (not debating as you mentioned) on this blog, or on my blog. Makagutu and I have an open blog policy. Anybody can write a comment without waiting for moderation.

            The reason my friend makagutu wrote the words above (I believe they got you upset when he said something like “educate you”) is not to insult you, but if I am not mistaken were to see what type of person you are. That is to say:” is our friend paarsurrey willing to change his mind about his own religion if one can provide a counter proof to his claims, or are we dealing with an Islamic apologetic here who would ignore evidence and defend his religion blindly? ”

            If this was not makagutu’s question, then please consider it my question and kindly answer it.

            From what I feel about you (and of course I could be wrong) I think you have embraced Islam lately and you were not originally a Muslim (again this is my own feeling) and thus, you speak about Islam in a poetical way from a person who seems to be in love with his own religion/God in the good sense of course (which is not something to be ashamed of).

            Please be patient for my comments as I have tons of work to do and that might delay my answer.

            In the meantime, I am anxiously waiting for your answers/comments, and wish you a nice evening.

            Like

            • paarsurrey says:

              “is our friend paarsurrey willing to change his mind about his own religion if one can provide a counter proof to his claims, or are we dealing with an Islamic apologetic here who would ignore evidence and defend his religion blindly? ”

              I am a born Ahmadiyya Muslim. I am not a scholar; I am just an ordinary man in the street. I am an open mind and comfortable with everybody of whatever religion or no religion one belongs.
              I don’t ridicule and or deride others; I respect every human being.
              It is my impression that Atheists don’t give any good reasons. they avoid it instead they ridicule and disrespect others and are intolerant people; exceptions could be there, I don’t deny.
              Please correct me if I am wrong.

              Like

              • Mike says:

                Wow, I am impressed really! You are the best Muslim I have ever discussed with!

                I would say it is your impression that atheists avoid reason and avoid discussing and ridicule other religions. Since we are talking about Islam, let us consider this little example:

                You as a Muslim, believe that your prophet Mohammed, was taken on the “Night Journey” or the “Isra and Mi’raj” from Mecca to Jerusalem alone in the night without anybody witnessing him, on a winged horse (Buraq)

                Now if you reason just a little bit, and you stop for a while and ask yourself: “A winged horse?”, again “A winged horse?”, really? Don’t you think that people would ridicule you if you believe this? Winged horse? That sounds like a Disney movie rather than a so called “fact” that happened, written in an old book, about an event that no human has ever witnessed. Allow me to say, with all the due respect, that it is indeed ridiculous. Don’t you agree?

                Again, I am not trying to ridicule your religion or anybody’s religion, they all ridicule themselves by themselves. Christians talk about a man who walked on the waters, turns water into wine, and brings life to dead people. Jews talk about another guy in the sky who kills children but he loves you. He hates gays, pigs and shrimps, and do not want to to eat them, so why create them?

                Like

                • paarsurrey says:

                  “You as a Muslim, believe that your prophet Mohammed, was taken on the “Night Journey” or the “Isra and Mi’raj” from Mecca to Jerusalem alone in the night without anybody witnessing him, on a winged horse (Buraq)”

                  Quran does not mention of Buraq or any winged horse and of Muhammad ever going to Jerusalem on this horse.

                  If you think it has happened; please quote from Quran.

                  Like

                  • Mike says:

                    I know there is no mention in the Quran of this Buraq 🙂
                    So mate, are you trying to say that the Hadeeth and what is mentioned in Saheeh Al Bukhari, and what has been told about the prophet Mohammad by his followers are incorrect and unreasonable? Again, I know it is not mentioned in the Quran, I am trying to figure out where your religious belief comes from 🙂

                    Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      My religion is not based on Hadith; Hadith did not exist in the time of Muhammad. If Quran does not support something I need not consider it.
                      If Quran supports something only then one should consider it.

                      Like

                    • Mike says:

                      Brilliant my friend, just brilliant, and I thank you for your kind reply and open mind.

                      Question though: Are you willing to stand up for your ideas and face most of the Islamic countries and say that in public in front of all Muslims that you don’t conaider Hadith to be a reliable source of the Islamic doctrine, or would you be afraid?

                      I am trying to understand…

                      Are there many of you who think about Islam this way my friend?

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      My stand is very clear.

                      The One True God mention in the very beginning of the Quran:
                      [2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
                      http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2

                      And every Muslim believes in it.

                      The one true God give reasons of every claim.

                      There is nothing like this for Hadith.

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      But then, even the koran did not exist at the time of Mo, if he lived. So why should you prefer one work of men to another?

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      Quran was revealed on Muhammad. I don’t get you. Please elaborate.

                      Like

                • paarsurrey says:

                  “Wow, I am impressed really! You are the best Muslim I have ever discussed with!”

                  Thanks for your appreciation.

                  Like

                • paarsurrey says:

                  What religion and the denomination you belong to? Please
                  Just for information

                  Like

              • tildeb says:

                Paarsurrey says instead they (atheists) ridicule and disrespect others and are intolerant people.

                My experience is that atheists are intolerant of many ideas… especially those that promote bigotry, misogyny, and unreasonable discrimination and privilege. Also, New Atheists make an effort to ridicule and disrespect claims for woo and agencies of Oogity Boogity. But these practices do not make atheists ridicule and disrespect others… just their harmful ideas. Get used to it, paarsurrey; after all, the internet is where religions come to die. It’s not a pretty sight but it is honest. And we’re all a little bit better for it.

                Like

                • makagutu says:

                  I think he doesn’t realize that we ridicule the ideas. And the world will be better for us all as soon as they realize most of the religious ideas deserve ridicule and contempt from any rational being.

                  Like

                  • tildeb says:

                    Simply put, ideas do not deserve dignity; people deserve dignity. And any theology that intentionally reduces the dignity of people as qua people deserves our deepest contempt. Islam is a shining example of doing exactly this in practice (the name itself, meaning ‘submission’, is a pretty good clue, btw) which is why it is a religious belief antithetical to the enlightenment values of autonomy and inherited self-worth of all people. It is richly deserving not just of sustained and vocal criticism but a ripe target for humor and ridicule. This means that its adherents will feel that they are under attack because they – not others – have accepted the religion to be a part of their identity. This is foolishness writ large and so muslims should knowingly understand that it is they, not us, who accompany legitimate criticism with perceived insult. We criticize those who empower this anti-human theology and that goes hand in hand with choosing to label one’s self as muslim. You cannot claim membership to a group and not accept responsibility for empowering its central tenets (the five pillars) that reduce the dignity and value of personhood by screening these through the religious filter first. If a muslim wants to be insulted by my legitimate criticism of islam then the problems revealed and the arguments and opinions set forth in the public square rests entirely with the believer.

                    Like

                • paarsurrey says:

                  “My experience is that atheists are intolerant of many ideas… especially those that promote bigotry, misogyny, and unreasonable discrimination and privilege.”

                  Please quote from me when I favored such ideas?

                  Like

                  • makagutu says:

                    Why are you taking it as a reference to you? He says what ideas atheists are intolerant of, and yes you favor such ideas without saying so as long as you support a religion that treats half the human race as less than equal, as long as you entertain in your mind the notion that a god spoke to some ignoramus and revealed himself over a period of time and that this ignoramus was able to re-transmit what he was told to others who could write without error! You further believe, that the book is in the language of god, a language spoken by just a small portion of the human race? If, perchance, you don’t think this ideas are insidious, you are beyond help my friend!

                    Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      Every believer or non-believer of religion from the one true God; is accountable to God; if a believer commits some wrong he is responsible for that as the non-believer; I would not defend anyone of them while they commit mistakes/sins; I will defend only Quran/Islam/Muhammad the source of the true religion.
                      Thanks
                      There is no teaching in Quran to enslave any human being.

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      Islam means submission if I am correct, and in this case it requires you to submit to a phantom, how blind are you?

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      Submission to the Truth with reason.

                      Like

                    • tildeb says:

                      No. This is not true. It means submission to allah through accepting the koran as the perfect word of god. It translates into living the five pillars of islam. It has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘The Truth’ (TM) involving reason.

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      I disagree with you.
                      Please give you evidence and reasons.

                      Like

                  • tildeb says:

                    I know you promote the koran as the source of your religious belief, so perhaps some of these discriminatory verses might ring a bell?

                    Quran (8:55) – Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve

                    Quran (48:29) – Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

                    Quran (9:30) – And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah… Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!

                    Quran (8:12) – I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

                    Quran (9:123) – O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness

                    Quran (5:33) – The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement

                    And if these don’t do the trick for you, perhaps you might appreciate why non believers might take offense to those who empower a religion that describe us as people who:

                    Eat like beasts 47:12
                    Are apes 7:166, 5:60, 2:65
                    Are swines 5:60
                    Are asses 74:50
                    The vilest of animals in Allah’s sight 8:55
                    Losers 2:27, 2:121, 3:85
                    Have a disease in their hearts 2:10, 5:52, 24:50
                    Are hard-hearted 39:22, 57:16
                    Impure of hearts 5:41
                    Are deaf 2:171, 6:25
                    Are blind 2:171, 6:25
                    Are dumb 2:171, 6:35, 11:29
                    Are niggardly 4:37, 70:21
                    Works shall be rendered ineffective 2:217, 47:1, 47:8
                    Are impure 8:37
                    Are scum 13:17
                    Are inordinate 5:68, 78:22
                    Are transgressors 2:26, 9:8, 46:20
                    Are unjust 29:49
                    Make mischief 16:88
                    Are the worst of men 98:6
                    Are in a state of confusion 50:5
                    Are the lowest of the low 95:5
                    Focus only on outward appearance 19:73-74
                    Are guilty 30:12, 77:46
                    Sinful liar 45:7
                    Follow falsehood 47:3
                    Deeds are like the mirage in a desert 24:39
                    also…
                    Allah does not love them 3:32, 22:38
                    Allah forsakes them 32:14, 45:34
                    Allah brought down destruction upon them 47:10
                    Allah has cursed them 2:88, 48:6
                    Allah despises them 17:18
                    Allah abases them 22:18

                    This from your holy book. This from the book you hold to be holy. Imagine if atheists held a single book to be the incorrigible truth that described muslims this way. And you wonder why we hold such a ‘holy’ book in such contempt? It’s because it is discriminatory bile.

                    Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      Please select one verse out of so many that you think is the most objectionable in your eyes; quote its full text along-with the verses in the context; then kindly prove your viewpoint/objection from them.

                      Thanks

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      That, I think you can do for yourself, it is your fancy I presume!

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      I don’t think it was difficult to select one out of them; may be you just copy-pasted them from some other website and you have not read the verses from Quran while studying Quran.

                      If one is not interested; I won’t do it; there is no compulsion.
                      May be you have understood that your viewpoint was wrong?
                      Thanks

                      Like

                • paarsurrey says:

                  “Also, New Atheists make an effort to ridicule and disrespect claims for woo and agencies of Oogity Boogity. But these practices do not make atheists ridicule and disrespect others… just their harmful ideas. Get used to it, paarsurrey; after all, the internet is where religions come to die. It’s not a pretty sight but it is honest. And we’re all a little bit better for it.”

                  This is an inhumane attitude of the Atheists; then they should not use the label Humanists.

                  Like

                  • makagutu says:

                    There is nothing remotely inhumane in showing that an idea is deserving of ridicule. So if you find that you hold ideas that people ridicule, maybe it’s time you looked at the ideas you hold afresh!

                    Like

                  • tildeb says:

                    How is ridiculing bad ideas inhuman?

                    Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      Reason is the language of understanding among the human beings; those who leave it they don’t do a reasonable thing.

                      Like

                    • tildeb says:

                      Your holy book is making claims about my character as a non believer that are false. You accept the truth of these claims without allowing reality to arbitrate them as false. This acceptance by you to elevate your faith to be of greater value than my character as demonstrated in reality is not just irrational but contrary to respecting the value of my human dignity. This belief of yours is blatant discrimination and worthy of contempt because you assume it to be a virtue when it is a vice in practice. It is you who are supporting irrationality and inhumane beliefs in the name of piety. This is why your beliefs are antithetical to western liberal secular democracy and should be considered by all who support human rights and freedoms to be an enemy of them. The good news is that you are capable of withdrawing your support from religious inhumane discrimination if you so choose. And if you allow your mind to be free of these religious shackles that support blatant discrimination, you too can become a supporter rather than an enemy of human dignity.

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      “Your holy book is making claims about my character as a non believer that are false. ”

                      Please quote the text of one such verse along-with the verses in the context and then prove your viewpoint from them.

                      Thanks

                      Like

                    • tildeb says:

                      Why the unnecessary deflection, paarsurrey? You know and I know and anyone who reads the koran knows that it is full of negative references towards non believers and their character flaws accompanied by urgings to not just treat but deal with us in highly prejudiced ways. The koran’s tolerance for non believers is set at zero. Pretending that this comes a startling news to you that requires further investigation and interpretive evidence is – to be blunt – duplicitous.

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      Unless you quote; there cannot be any meaningful discussion. I think you will agree.

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      Am glad you know this, so how is it you still believe a ghost talked to Mo or this you don’t think need to be put on the table of reason?

                      Like

                    • paarsurrey says:

                      I never talked of any ghost. Did I talk of any ghost? There are no ghosts mentioned in Quran.
                      If you read about any of the ghosts in Quran; then please quote the text of the verse of Quran with the verses in the context. You might have not understood correctly.

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      That I don’t understand any bit!

                      Like

      • paarsurrey says:

        Thank you for the appreciation
        I will visit your blog and we will discuss the things; sorry I don’t debate ; I only discuss.
        Politics is different than the true religion; the Muslim have been intolerant not because there is any such teaching in Quran/Islam/Muhammad but because they follow political leaders/mullahs who have deviated from the true and peace loving path of Quran/Islam/Muhammad.

        Like

        • makagutu says:

          Paarsurrey, I don’t think it is possible to lead you back to the path of reason. You are way off, you have bought so much into superstition and the teachings of your imam to the extent you think it is true. Tell me, if you may, if there is a separation between politics and religion in the life of a muslim.

          Like

          • paarsurrey says:

            Yes; the teachings for personal uplift of a Muslim are mentioned distinctively in Quran; how he has to deal with other human beings is also mentioned distinctly. Not everybody rules; so if one has to rule; teachings for that are distinctly mentioned in Quran.
            If one deviates from them; we don’t have to follow such a person.

            Like

          • paarsurrey says:

            What is your concept of superstition? Please don’t quote from any dictionary; there are many available on-line. I want your concept; no compulsion however to answer; an optional question.

            The possibility has been only if you would have stuck to reason; instead you opted for unreasonable words. If you delete them and come to reason; the possibility might be there; the possibility also will be open for your equally.Reason cuts either way.

            Is it OK.

            Like

        • Mike says:

          Well mate, of course I could be wrong, but from what I see and have personally verified, Islam is a way of life, and an Islamic country that wants to live by the Islamic doctrine has to apply the Shari’a law. Now here comes the conflict! Someone who governs, call him a politician or a Khalifa, there is no difference, it is a man who enforces religious laws on citizens, so I can’t find a way how to interpret your claim about Mullahs and politicians who deviated from the true Islam, but incorrect sentence.

          Like

          • paarsurrey says:

            The teachings of Islam are incorporated in Quran- the Word revealed on Muhammad, not authored by him but by the one true God.

            Quran does not mention of any “Shari’a law”; it is made by the deviant clergy or the Mullah’s and is not same as Quran- the first and the foremost source of Islam/Muhammad.

            Like

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    Like

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