Fellow sufferers, am being very generous today. Am not going to argue for existence of gods, Mohammed or Jesus but I have a very simple question.
The apologists have told us that religion is a way of knowing.
Now tell me, is there a time in our lifetime that a scientific answer has been replaced with a religious one?
Just that and please support your answer and preferably if you have a link to the source material include it in your response.
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How can we be sure that religion provides us correct knowledge? At school, a book on religion told us that science and philosophy cannot answer some questions, however my first reaction was: How do we (you) know that the answers given by religion are the correct answers?
The point is that religious zealots are not proving anything, they are just arguing by assertions. For example, they assert that life is so complex, it has to be designed. This axiom, is however never proven by them.
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The religious rule by assertions and which can’t be ascertained one way or the other! They will always shift the goal post
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As is true of any belief system right? There is no ‘we’ in subjectivity.
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There is no we in subjectivity. It is unique to each and everyone, but we should all be skeptical especially with regard to established institutions in any case!
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yes! lol including science, but you know how I feel about that already 🙂
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Oh yes, skepticism to all things including science :). We agreed on it.
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Huzzah we agree on something! Not that we didn’t before, we just have our own ways of expressing the same things I think.
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Most times we agree, sometimes we disagree and so far I know the one area where I think we are not in agreement is the question of free will. The rest of the issues, I think we can agree on 😛
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I thought you believed in free will?
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I think it is an illusion and have written a few posts on the same. So I think it’s our only area of disagreement. Your posts, especially, on channeling draw me to your site especially so since I really would want to understand what you do and seek a different explanation for it.
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The only way that I can channel anything at all is because I believe that anything is possible. I make it possible by believing it, and to me that is exercising my free will. Whether it is true or not, or whether indeed what I believe in is total farce, is irrelevant. The fact that it works is testament enough for me.
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It’s the perfect question! Of course, you won’t get any theists responding, because they can’t…. which just means you have to keep it peculating and present the dilemma to them at every available opportunity in the future 🙂
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There was a theist who I told you had promised to answer my questions, I sent her a set of questions I really needed answers to she never came back to me! Though I must say I wasn’t in the least surprised, they are difficult questions to answer 😛
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My Nairobi brother, why do I always get nervous when you pose a “simple” question? There is nothing simple about you, my friend! 🙂
I have to agree with Mordanicus’ thoughts. Their rebuttal of scientific fact is merely to reiterate a belief that is not universally shared or respected. It’s not supported by proven evidence. The theists themselves, due to the diversity of belief systems around the world, cannot even offer one singular acceptable replacement for any scientific fact.
Much love and naked hugs!
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I like to ask simple questions, there is no ambiguity in the sentence structure, no hidden meanings. Simple and straight forward and they also appear to be the hardest to answer 🙂
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Exactly! That’s why, coming from you, my Nairobi brother, they always make me uneasy! I love you, man! 🙂
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Next time I will just write I have a question 🙂
How are you doing? Hope you got to finish the exam scripts you had.
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Finished them all and am now trying to enjoy a summer devoted to writing! 🙂
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Are you writing a book or a paper to be submitted to some board?
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The usual “publish” requirement for university. A text book that no one reads except students in MY classes! 🙂 It’s a vicious cycle!
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Maybe I can tell you a story – a true one.
The late professor of geology at Stellenbosch University many years ago used to tell his students that a minister phoned him, the preacher was preparing his sermon for the Sunday and wanted to know if volcanoes are increasing or decreasing. So Prof Taljaard asked him why such a question and the minister said he wanted proof that the Earth will be destroyed by fire.
Maybe in an indirect way this can also answer your question?
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Interesting story except I think fire will not be the cause, but will accompany the destruction, that is, if scientists are right.
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Forget about scientific answers getting replaced with religious ones, what tends to happen often is that religion falls in line with scientific discoveries. Instead of correcting scientific facts, what happens is religions get modified and fall in line with science.
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Which in fact means that there is no truth in religion. If religion is adapting to science, it means that the supposed revealed truths are not true. Otherwise there should be no change.
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The religious should just rest their case then we can move skepticism forward by asking scientists and philosophers to justify what it is they want us to take as truth.
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I fully concur with you. Questioning science and philosophy is much more useful than arguing about fairy tales.
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Yes, of course there is no truth in religious BS.
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In this case you are with Mordanicus the religious should stop insisting their religious books posses truth especially if they have to be modified to align with scientific discoveries.
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What kind of knowing? And are you talking about religion or faith?
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Faith especially and religion in general. I have seen it in posts that science is not the only way of knowing, that religion offers other means so I was wondering if there is some place in the last few years we have replaced scientific knowledge with a religious one.
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gotcha. thanks for that.
well, as far as what the molecules are in my toothpaste-science wins, but on the philosophical-knowing, too close to call.
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If a philosopher gives you an answer to your question, it is no longer philosophy but a science. You must always have a question to the philosopher. Her duty is to make you think, remove you from your comfort zone, challenge your beliefs leave you unsettled.
How are you this morning my friend? Am well up a bit early to do some work before I leave for the day
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sorry, was not talking about philosophy as in science specifically. personally i think philosophy should NEVER be listed as a science. seriously. if you’re going to allow philosophy to be a science, then you have to let in creationists, because neither one deals with empirical evidence.
i was good this morning. thank you so much for asking. and you? you did work before you left for work? goodness, now that’s dedication 🙂
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It’s 4am here. Am well. I will not be in the office today and there is a presentation tomorrow so am trying to work on it and email my colleague.
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oh my! i am so sorry if i am keeping you from work! I will leave off if you wish. good luck on your presentation. i bet it will be marvelous 🙂
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You aren’t keeping me from work. Am working on a render so the computer takes time to process the image. I hope it does, we are trying to attract some investors to employ as their consultants for a property they have. Am almost done with it anyway.
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ooh that sounds very interesting.
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but then again, who is reading the bible scientifically, like as a scientific text? anyone? there might be some helpful tips in there we don’t know about. healing, plants, etc.?
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There is some gem and my favorite in Ecclesiastes for the timeless wisdom on vanity and Job for the problem of evil. In Job it is clear god does not know why people suffer or else he would have told him.
At least most christians unlike their muslim counterparts don’t make claims that the bible is vindicated by science.
Some muslims claim the scientific discoveries being made now are foretold in the koran, my only question has been why hasn’t the universities chosen it a scientific reference material or is there a conspiracy against Islam?
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no, if he told job, then it would defeat the purpose of the test.
well, see, here’s the problem, some things in the bible are perfectly valid as observations of natural things, or commentary on human nature, or that philosophical stuff i was mentioning earlier. nothin wrong with that. seems silly not to accept the good parts as useful.
i’m sure it can’t be a scientific reference because a)predictions are never totally exact like science tries to be. b) it was not written using the globally agreed upon scientific method.
i would assume so anyway
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I think at the end when Job petitions god to tell him why he suffers the list he could have done was to give him an answer and not show off his majesty, asking Job who creates what he sees and what nots.
No, we can’t dismiss the baby with the birth water just because we found out it was myth. We know Aesop Fables are just that, but they have great teachings and the same can be said for sections of the bible.
Well yes, a prediction that can explain everything depending on how good you are at mental gymnastics may not explain anything at the end.
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ah, i follow you on the job thing now. thanks.
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I believe in things the science teaches that are not opposite to the religion. My Philosophy professor taught us that science asks for proofs, while religion is believing without proofs. To be specific to your question, I say yes, to those people that have accepted the science as the only way of knowing, but later opened a way for religion in their lives. (Personally I was so insecure and “lost” in my life that I used to believe some people came from monkeys and some were created by God. I’m glad I don’t think the same now.)
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You really did have a really ridiculous belief[no pun intended].
Tell me, my friend, what has religion taught you?
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Many, many things. First of all I feel much happier knowing there’s Someone to care about me. That this world isn’t everything, other dimension exists, one day everything will be perfect. It has taught me to appreciate the spiritual rather than material things. To worship God only, as that is the connection no one can take away from me. That all the pain, all the suffering is or will be worth. Science may be very good when it comes developing new things that could help the humans, but the basics, according to me are given by God.
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Are you scared in this godless universe that you long for a celestial dictator? When you talk of spiritual, what do you mean by it? By it I understand, brains states, the mind taking a walk in the park and making up things. This post may interest you I guess.
Well, to worship god is to worship what is best in you, since as Dante said, ‘man adores himself when he worships god’.
What can needless suffering, like a tooth ache be worth? Or the suffering resulting from tornadoes, earthquakes and so on, what is the worth of all these?
Please tell me, what are these basics provided by god?
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We are debating again!
I think I am kind of scared. I have chosen to accept there is something better than humans, so by obeying Him I’ll satisfy Him. I live this life as preparation for eternity, unlike some others that live just for the moment. By spirituality I understand interaction of the spirits. I thought you believed in spirit. The post you have addressed me to is somewhat cruel, if you want people to accept your teachings you should do it with love. There are many things beyond us that our finite minds can’t understand now. Worshiping ourselves would be a sin, we are not perfect.
I meant spiritual suffering (pain of the soul). Anyway we gain experience from those examples that you have mentioned.
About the basics, you must know them because you are so dedicated to this subject religion vs atheism. Personally, we should accept that God exists, we need to be patient to see Him and His glory. He has the POWER and none of us wants to be a loser.
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with you my friend no debates, just points for clarification.
I apologize that you find the post offensive, it wasn’t my intention to do so except to share with you how I think of spiritualists and spirituality.
I admit there is so much we don’t know but I will not go so far as to say we can’t know.
If one of the basics is god’s existence, I don’t know except that I exist. But if a god must exist, it does so just as a hypothesis, a product of the mind.
Don’t be scared my friend, we are here with you and only us can make this place safer and the journey beautiful.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
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