Whenever I see a comment like
We have moral values in Africa,don’t enforce western virtues on us, well illustrated in the Holy books,advocate for the once dying because of hunger and diseases rather wasting your time on some irrelevant issues of gay people.
I know I have come into contact with an ignorant sissy. The books he calls [sic] holy are not African and tell stories of Hebrew goat herders. Stories that our ancestors were sold to on the threat of death. Indeed, it is known in many places, the colonialist came immediately after the missionary who himself had come with a gun and bible. Either way the African was fucked. He had to swallow the bible hook, line and sinker and as years go by, we continue to produce ignoramuses who have not thought beyond what their parents, who didn’t know better, told them. What a shame!
Am at the same time at a loss what this particular person means when he says we have moral values in Africa. Does he mean that the moral values, whatever they are, are distinct from what others who make similar claims of possessing moral values hold? And which values are these?
The next respondent who pretends to offer a third way is still as bigoted and stuck in a rut as the rest. He writes
Both Africans and Westerners should reject the false choice suggested by this article: that either a) homosexual behaviour is accepted as normal or b) we violently and irrationally persecute those inclined to homosexuality. There is a third way; it can calmly and rationally be identified as wrong, and calmly and rationally stigmatized, and also violence and hatred can receive the same rejection.
which is in essence not different from saying we ostracize those who are gay among us as if human beings come marked heterosexual or whatever sexual? It is a failure to understand that they who speak loudest against others can’t tell anyone the day they made the choice to be straight. As I have said before, what two consenting adults do in their private bedrooms or on the street is their business and the sooner this sinks into people’s heads, the sooner we will deal with other problems that face our race.
I feel sad every time I read articles full of such bigotry, stupidity and intolerance.
Random thoughts 
I do not understand why people have something against gay and lesbian people. Do gays and lesbians do any harm by having sex? Maybe to themselves, but not to the general population, at least not more than straight people do.
In fact we might say that heterosexuality is much more harmful than homosexuality, since the former lead too often to the birth of unwanted children. Gays and lesbians do not get unwanted children, and if they want to raise a family they have to go to a more sophisticated process in which they are forced to think about having kids actually means.
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See what I was alluding to, the anti-life mentality. While you were born, you think of others as unwanted and find it ok to go shopping for children of heterosexual parents. That’s why gay unions and contraception belong to the same school of life which = WIPE HUMANITY OUT OF EXISTENCE and ENJOY ONESELF.I will have children but I will never use artificial contraception, I will use Natural Family Planning so that I will have children to take after me 🙂 and I will teach them the ways of Christ 🙂
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While you are teaching them the story of christ, I hope you tell them that the god who created them at one point got tired of his experiment and drowned everyone except 8 family members, also tell them that when David shagged Uriah’s wife, god so it fit to kill the baby, that he stopped the sun for a few hours so that the Israelites could kill the Canaanites, and then later on when this didn’t work he chose to make a woman betrothed to someone else pregnant, come down as a man and have himself killed to save man from himself. Please come back and tell me if they find that teaching reasonable and believable by an adult. I will be patient.
Not all homosexuals opt for adoption, so if this is your reason to oppose gay marriage, you are doing badly. And I guess you must be catholic too, you listen to some old geezer in purple dresses, red sandals who is himself a eunuch giving you marriage advice. It is time you started to think for yourself, if you can that is!
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Maka, this person is just a troll.
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I think he/she needs help
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Your logic isn’t holding up. I was born out of wedlock and put up for adoption because my mother was too young to take care of me, my grandmother was getting married to a younger man and didn’t want him to know she was a grandmother, and the aunt that would have taken me in was herself pregnant. She was really torn about the decision to put me up for adoption. Most of her family probably would have liked to have prevented my biological mother from having sex in the first place. So if you can accept the idea of preventing unwanted children from being born by abstinence, why would you not prevent the same thing through contraception? What you choose for yourself is none of my business. Hopefully, you will marry a rich man to support all those kids or one you can persuade to forgo sex, because that’s what Natural Family Planning entails.
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I think it’s a case of bigotry and nothing else
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My Nairobi brother, I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. As a same gender loving man, I have become immune to such disrespectful and spiteful remarks. However, I know that millions of my fellow GLBT brothers and sisters, not only in Africa but all over the world, daily struggle against prejudice, violence and even death merely because of who they love.
Unfortunately, corrupt, deceiving politicians and greedy, hypocritical leaders of belief systems use the marginalization, discrimination and violence against my people to further their own personal agendas and coffers. They see this violation of human dignity and rights as a tool to maintain and prolong their power. Otherwise, their followers might actually realize that there are social ills of far greater significance that already exist and are being ignored.
Thank you, friend, for having the courage and sense of justice to publicly address this issue.
Much love and naked hugs!
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the only way to change society is by continuous dialogue where ideas are tabled on the table of reason to adjudicate and only those that pass muster are adopted.
Thanks for your comments brother and enjoy the summer
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“Normal”, “right” are extreemly complicated categories to deal with when it comes to sexual attraction… One may say heterosexuality to be “normal” from a biological-reproductive point of view, but to likewise categorise intensely personal feelings of love and physical attraction, that’s just ignorant. I know, I’ve been there…
And Noel my friend, I find it very unpleasant to call my ancestors simply “Hebrew goat herders”, when in fact they were “sheep AND goat” herders! Rachel means mother “sheep” not mother “goat”!
Oy vey!:-D 😀 😀
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My apologies. Next time I will add sheep and goat herders and later camel herders. I don’t want to offend any of my friends.
The problem I have with these people is they have bought the bible stories and gave up thinking. If the pastor says this is bad, it is bad. They have been told to view the world as either good or bad, right and wrong!
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No offence at all my friend, just wanted to have a bit of friendly fun:-D
You are right, and as I said I speak from sad experince. Religion and thinking are at totally different ends. And until one is religiously bound, there’s no way of arguing and reasoning. “Walk by faith, not by sight” has been especially designed to dumb people down to obedience to their leaders.
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I like the walk by faith not by sight observation. It will be handy in future posts on faith
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Just to understand the depth of what the religious establishment has done to keep people dumbed down, there was a saying we grew up with in Transylvania, which translated would be “believe and do moot seek/research”, meaning that one was expected to blindly believe the church’s doctrines, without daring to look deeper into the matters in discussion. You wont believe the damage done to generation after generation of children mentally reduced to believe only what the rev father told them, learning even to read from the Psalms for the middle-ages, taught by the priest, savagely beaten for any mistakes. Masses of intellectuals flock every year for medieval easter, xmas etc, calling it “just cultural habit”, but deeply daring not to question the establishment. The Constantinian plot is still in effect, with incalculable and lasting damages.
Catholic children starve by the hundreds of millions, while the Vatican sits on billions, with the world cheering whenever a new pope is being elected! I am disgusted to be of the same human race as these criminals…
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We have good and bad. No in between, that is why you get so mad when someone beats you or steals your stuff. Otherwise we would all do whatever we wanted and result in anarchy. Even scientists thrive form the fact that they know certain principles hold true otherwise no science would be possible. If for example I decided one plus one is three while others say its two and another says its eleven. Would mathematics progress. Similarly humanity can’t thrive if we all have our standards of right and wrong. Thomas Hobbes who wrote the Leviathan knew that. The state of nature is deplorable. There exists liberty but no one is free because it’s survival for the fittest.
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You are all over the place. There are no objective moral values which if it is what you are alluding to, you are mistaken and you can’t compare them[moral values] to mathematical axioms or Natural constants. You commit a category error, which is a fallacy of logic.
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If it is simply fear of anarchy, I can put your mind at ease. Last year they passed a law in my state so people of the same gender can marry. Anarchy, I assure you has not broken out and I feel confident that it will not.
As I said to makagutu in an earlier post, compare the different states in the U.S. Some of the most functional, pleasantest, most prosperous states with high levels of education, relatively low levels of crime and other signs of societal disfunction are the same ones that allow same sex marriage or civil unions. Once upon a time, people were forced to rely upon conjecture and transmitted their cultural values through stories, frequently oral stories. Now, we have centuries of written history, we can communicate easily across oceans, we have better statistical methods and we can do better than our ancestors did. Hopefully, future generations won’t take what we say now as being immune to questioning and they will be able to do even better.
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*Kalondu: You see I firmly believe that you create your own reality, so in my view you create the horrible world that you live in, and you perpetuate it by continuing to think negatively and speak ill of everyone that is not you. Come out of the closet yourself my dear and let everybody see you for who you are.
Me? I live in a world of gay love and wonder where everyone really does have equal rights because they have a brain and thus have the right to exercise personal choice. You my friend choose the shit storm that you create because it suits you and your limited framework of beliefs. Do not think for one minute that your view belongs to anyone else. Of course your view in the great scheme of things is just as valid as my own, but when your view condones violence and hatred against your fellow human, then I think mine trumps yours by light years.
If you have a bone to pick with gay people, then you know where you can find me. You can kiss my gay behind!
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Nietzsche said somewhere the christian idea the world is bad and ugly has made the world ugly and bad or something close and that I think is in line with your comments.
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Indeed it is. But I suppose on closer examination the world really isn’t ugly at all. It’s just that certain points of view and focusses of intent are ugly in that they cause suffering not only for the person that holds the view, but for those who also subscribe to that way of thinking. I think it’s sad for anyone to be so closed minded. I think of all the wonderful experiences those people could be having instead of hating.
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Of course, the world looked at without religious filters is such a beautiful place. People are just trying to live their lives, get along and then someday die a quiet and peaceful existence
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To add to that, a world looked at without fear, because any level of prejudice is measured by fear and lack of knowledge, or dare I say it ‘incorrect’ knowledge, or knowledge that is limiting. I’m not sure everybody wants to die peacefully, but at least happy that they were able to express themselves fully. I would quite happily die of a tragic accident if I knew that I had lived a fulfilling life that wasn’t constantly being usurped by some bigoted lunatic dictating who I should or shouldn’t be.
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Dying peacefully here to me means dying a good death, on your terms if your can control it, not suffering endlessly before you pull the final curtain.
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Fair enough. Yes I agree.
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Thoughtful post as always. I’m intrigued by the phrase “calmly and rationally stigmatized,” which seems to be to completely oxymoronic. Live and let live is a good mantra to live by. 🙂
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Amen to that
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well said! There are people who need to be reminded of that mantra
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The missionaries couldn’t quite kill MY religion… May it rise again. Animism is pretty cool, and the stories are way better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zande_people
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I guess it is much grander. I will read it in a bit
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You know what? Even if being gay was a choice, it should never be stigmatized.
What consensual adults do in their bedroom and who they love is no one else’s business. There is no ‘normal’, only average.
Like I always say, I’m tolerant of everything except intolerance and there are copious amounts of intolerance in the world.
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well said M
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Hi there Mak!
I think you mention many important issues in this article. Of course I also think that consenting adults should experience their sexuality in any way they like, but I’m also very happy to see that you don’t buy into the idea that values should change with the place people live in. I think everything that is fundamental and important is relevant to all human beings, wherever they live. And often this appeal to regional values is as disguised attack on universal human rights. Thank you for writing about this!
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hello lively always a pleasure to hear I you or should i say read your comments.
You make very important observations
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While I may not have understood what you are trying to pass along, as you have said: “What two consenting adults do in their private bedrooms or on the street is their business-people can do their stuff even when we deem them as wrong but they should not proclaim them on rooftops (even while some of us will care about what they do so as to redeem their souls). If gay people are really genuine they would remain in their closets. After all, who follows them to know when they get intimate. The problem is they ask for gay rights, then next they want to get married as normal couples. Next they want to adopt children born of heterosexual relationships, then what next. I know my guess, what’s yours?
You can check out my two articles on that issue:
http://beyondsurfaceappearance.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/why-do-lgbti-groups-love-to-play-the-victim/ &
http://beyondsurfaceappearance.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/when-the-immoral-becomes-the-medias-pet/
Peace!
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One cannot end a post with “Peace” if one is going to deny his fellow man the right to love as openly as himself. The only thing immoral about homosexuality is the heterosexual bias against it. Whining that homosexuals somehow affect one’s own life makes the whiner the egocentric, selfish, prejudice, scared, and ignorant victim, not us.
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Too True! 🙂
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you left out bigotry
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haha we should all leave out bigotry 😉
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The key is individual rights; meaning whether you are a man, woman or child, gay – transsexual- bisexual, you have the right to do what you want, as long as you are not intentionally harming others right to choose for themselves. The government should have no say, in marriage who should marry or not. True equality rests upon the pillars of individual rights.
As for the Bible, it has been forced down the throats of everyone ever since the crusades. The Biblical foundations lie in the Middle East, that is where you can find the ‘true Christians’. The Europeans who follow the Bible are traitors to their ancestors and their pagan roots, forced conversions were not uncommon in Europe as well. Although, I am not a pagan – I still regard paganism as a higher form of religion compared to the Judeo-Christian nonsense.
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Community rights trump individual rights. Human beings do not live in isolation. They co-exist. If a right causes harm to humanity then it should not be a right. Just because I can do what I want to do does not mean I should steal. And if I steal from you, that does not interfere with your right to make a choice does it? After all, you can also make the decision to steal or not steal. There has to a moral standard or else we have anarchy. When one decides to abort their child they infringe on the right of the unborn baby to life. One might not pay directly but humanity will pay collectively. Especially where human reproduction is concerned. Nations that encourage the abortion of their babies sow the seeds of aborting their nation. People make up nations and without them a nation ceases to exist. Take the case of Europe whose population has a below replacement rate. After making abortion and contraception widely available, they learnt their lesson and have the most family friendly policies while they export their failed policies to developed nations that value life. The demographic winter can also be linked to the economic crisis. People buy and sell; without them there is no business. People make up nations, without them there is no state or nation; it’s pretty that simple. Look at the state of demographics in the world and learn:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/06/daily-chart-10
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21579817-lot-more-people-faces-future
The future belongs to those who value life. Those who don’t will be wiped out of existence! Gay behaviour opposes life. A gay union is only derivative of pleasure. It does not nurture life and extends to the anti-life category. Further children thrive well with both parents not two parents of the same sex. Learn from Russia, facing demographic winter, they now promote pro-life and pro-family policies; these include banning same sex couples from adopting children and any public behaviour that will teach the gay lifestyle to young children. Children can only be adopted by straight parents because the normal family is the best place for a child to grow up. Google this new policy and learn. Unfortunately humanity loves to learn from experience and there are consequences which are not related to punishment from God. For this case, economic failure and the wipe-out of nations. Even the atomic bomb can’t compete with the anti-life mentality. While know the atomic bomb is dangerous, they don’t understand that killing their babies before they are born is worse. Not until they grow old and realise they have no one to hand over their future to. As for me, natural law rules. I do not seek to convince you. Finally, Judeo Christian teachings have always been proved right by time and science. Relativism has always lost. The creator knew how He wanted things to work and whether we believe in His existence or not, the consequence will catch up with us.
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Collectivism leads to totalitarian and oppressive regimes such as the Soviet Union. Collectivism halts individual progress, and settles for the rule of the masses. That type of attitude leads humans to misery and oppression, humans are not social animals nor are they lone wolves. As Ayn Rand puts it.
“Man gains enormous values from dealing with other men: living in a human society is his proper way of life – but only on certain conditions. Man is not a lone wolf and he is not a social animal. He is a contractual animal. He has to plan his life long-range, make his own choices, and deal with other men by voluntary agreement (and he has to be able to rely on their observance of the agreement they entered).” “A Nation’s Unity,” Ayn Rand Letter, Vol. II, 2, p. 3.”
To say that community trumps individual rights is oppressive and anti-human. You seek to negate individual freedom because of your own agenda.This is mere selfishness, which harbors and comes back to the parasitic collective mentality of religion and other common nonsense. Again you talk about the children, the overused rhetoric that seeks to invoke guilt. Guess what a child may be happier living in a family that is capable of to support and provide basic necessities for him. If there are gay parents who can provide and straight parents who can’t, I would rather have the gay parents raise the child. Because then we will know that basic necessities of life will be provided for.
The problem with Russia, is their collective and socialist background. Russia was never an individualistic utopia, it was an oppressive regime which stems from the same collective mysticism from which your religion comes from. Socialism and religiosity are synonymous and are both anti-human.
Of course if you condone rape, the crusades and the murder of innocent children, I guess you can say that the Bible has been proven right. LOL http://categoricalhousewife.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/god-hates-women-why-eve-was-a-rebel/
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You are so woefully ignorant you are dangerous. I am sorry your worldview has so damaged your mind that you cannot recognize love when you see it.
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He is a danger to himself and society 🙂
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I am sorry for what they’ve made him believe. It is sad.
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Very sad, maybe if he continues to come here, he will get out of that bubble and see the world differently, not through the lens of a priest but through that of understanding
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Or just find a better priest. His god is not my enemy, but the men who have interpreted God for him have mislead him into thinking we are all so different-even though he was also told we are all god’s children, and therefore loved equally. he has to think logically-if his god loves us all that way, then we should love each other that way too, as god’s children. his priests or elders have taught him the opposite of this love to protect the fear that they inherited from those before. their god’s message is love. just love.
the bible has two sections (old & new) to show people the flaws in the old ways. god was wrong, and he admits his mistakes by sending humans jesus. jesus was god’s apology for his bad thinking. jesus was god’s way of saying, “do not live with intolerance, and ignorance, and hate, love one another openly, fully.”
revelations is not a fiery destruction of the planet, it is the end of the old ways, the end of the hate and suffering through positive change and following jesus’ teachings. a revelation is not a summer blockbuster movie explosion that kills thousands of people, or an earthquake that wipes out Los Angeles. those things are just nature. god’s revelation for us is our epiphany, our quiet realization in our minds that, hey, there’s a better way of living that does not hurt people. it is a communal light bulb that is supposed to turn on and help people out of the dark, out of the fear of their ignorance. it is the new way of peace and unity.
People read the old and the new, but miss the whole point of the transition. People should always start reading the bible from the gospels forward. then once they mastered that part and shaped their lives as good people, they can read the old testament, for only then are they ready to learn their bible-truth of their unpleasant history. reading it from genesis to revelations is the wrong way. it makes people think that the OT is a guidebook. they somehow totally miss the fact the the NT completely dispels all of its mean teaching and flawed logic.
It amazes me how many christians miss the whole jesus part.
if this man who is walking the wrong path would just go back and live his live by the gospels, by his own revelations using the gospels, he will find his righteous and tolerant path. may he find true peace.
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You my friend, today I vote you high priestess! What a sound and beautiful interpretation. This is just amazing!
Will you be his/her priest?
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haha i cannot do his god as much justice as he could by learning god’s love on his own. we all must find whatever we feel is god in ourselves, and that is usually best done without the help of people 🙂
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You are lying. Go take a look at the bill of rights, it recognizes an individual’s right to do stuff. And as has been written by others, community rights lead to totalitarian governments or societies where there can be no dissent, no self expression and eventually no rights. So please tell, how does homosexuality harm society?
Apart from recreation, which you don’t do daily, how is heterosexuality not about pleasure? You must be living in a time warp where you see your woman as an incubator and only go to her to make children, what a sad existence! So in your case too, anyone who chooses not to have children is anti-life! Children will do well if the environment they are brought up in is conducive for their development. The world is populated by children brought by hetero couples who were so dysfunctional that the children didn’t come out any better. There are countless homeless children who were also birthed by heteros, so your argument is moot.
What Judeo-Christian teachings have been validated by science and time. And please tell when has relativism lost and what was it in competition with?
You can believe in a creator god, that is your fancy, if it makes you happy so be it.
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At this juncture in history, I’m really not worried about human beings disappearing because they stopped breeding. As far as Europeans go, I’m living on a continent (North America) that has been almost entirely filled up by European descendants when there were no Europeans living here just three centuries ago. Maybe Europeans decided they’ve gone above and beyond the call of duty and want to take a well deserved break, give the rest of you a chance to catch up.
In seriousness, if we can have people reproducing at something close to the replacement rate without authoritarian laws like China’s old one child policy, it could really help alleviate environmental degradation – and I’m not even talking from a tree hugger perspective – just from the perspective of a self-interested human being that likes to eat food and drink water.
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Need I say, baseless equality that is anti-life will not last as it will lead to death of nations.
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You might also find this helpful:
Click to access a-case-for-the-legislation-of-morality1.pdf
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Please don’t tell me you are a woman??!!!! Why are you promoting religion that is essential if anything else anti-woman? Have some respect for yourself lady. So do you also believe that a woman should not have a right to an abortion, even if she is raped?
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you start by saying you may not have understood what I was saying and going by your comment that must truly be the case. Whenever people fight for rights or freedoms it’s not because they want to bother the rest but to raise awareness in the general psyche that they be accorded the same rights everyone enjoys as a human person. The government has no business with I i marry, it should offer the same protection and privileges across the board.
I have read the two articles you linked here and they are an example of unfounded bigotry. You write, for example,
which doesn’t make any sense. If a woman is beaten by the husband, it goes without saying they are heterosexual. If a gay person is attacked, why are you calling this calling attention to themselves? Are you so full of hate to others that it bothers you when they call for help.
Then you commit fallacies of logic. You write
which is a category error for nowhere does a gay person harm you or anyone else. The thief infringes on another person’s freedom.
Elsewhere you write
What truth are you referring to here, what is this truth you posses that others do not? You talk so confidently of Jesus, has it ever occurred to you that he is a myth. Work of art and credulity and sold over the ages to gullible believers like you?
Then you assume a moral high ground for you and fellow believers and write
and show that you are not any different from those pastors who thing homosexuality is a disease that need to be treated and so say they need to be cared for as we do to those living with HIV/AIDS.
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how pitiful. and it seems that folks from the US are bound and determined to export their hatred to the countries in Africa since they are failing so desperately here.
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Oh yes, and guys are buying it here in drones!
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What were the traditional beliefs of your people before the arrival of the British?
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On religion most groups/ tribes had some sort of deity they worshiped. On governance some communities were matriarchal some[majority] were patriarchal. There were council of elders whose duty was to hear disputes and also I think advised the chief.
Different groups had different methods of initiation to adulthood ranging from circumcision to have lower teeth removed and such other practices.
In many communities, polygamy and monogamy lived side by side. None was shunned upon. In some communities, when a woman was barren, she would “marry” another woman with whom her husband could sire children.
On education, the ladies were taught by their grandmas and the boys by their grandfathers or elderly females and males in the community respectively.
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Interesting. It sounds like there’s some overlap with the behavior of Native American tribes in the East. About a third of the chiefs were women. That’s actually the origin of the word “squaw”, which is considered an ethnic slur today. One could say that serial monogamy was the dominant form of relationship, but there were no hard and fast rules. The early colonists reported both cases of polygamy and polyandry.
Reading early colonists’ narratives, it’s hard to make out their religious views. Of course, almost all their descendents are Christians today. Some early colonists reported that the Indians had “no religion.” Today, members of those tribes will dispute that because they think it makes them sound like they were savages before Europeans arrived. My own conjecture is that they didn’t believe in a “personal god” like Judeo-Christian religions, but probably spirits and other forces. Tribes in other parts of the continent pretty obviously had a supreme being an others were polytheistic, so I’m talking specifically about the Algonquian tribes.
Actually, according to my own personal taste, if I had to choose to live in a traditional, as opposed to modern, culture, I might stay right where I am and travel back in time. They strike me as a really agreeable group. I’m not romanticizing Native Americans, either. I have no desire to belong to a Pueblo tribe or a Siouan tribe. The Iroquoian tribes have much to recommend in their cultures, but I think I’d still prefer to be Wampanoag, or Lenape, Nanticoke, Rappahannock, we could go down the list. It’s quite long.
Keep your teeth, however.:)
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Wow, I really walked into a hornet’s nest here my marvellous friend! How the devil are you today Noel? I see you sharpened a very big stick for this post, controversial. The ridiculous thing is, why should it be controversial at all? Why, with all the intelligence that we have in our tiny heads are we still so hung up about such issues that in my mind are very natural aspects of human behaviour? If I want to have a sex with a woman or a man, why should I have to make it public knowledge, as you say what has it got to do with anyone else? Does it make any difference at all to the bigoted attitudes that some people choose to harbour? No, I don’t think so, unless they themselves cannot reconcile themselves with their own latent or lack of sexuality. I have children, not shop-bought as our mutual friend suggests, though why should I not also have the right to be gay?
My children have my full support in wherever their hearts lead them. It is nothing to do with me. What matters to me as a mother is that they are happy, and are not forced to be something that they are not because of their family or cultural values as I was. Besides you can’t knock what you haven’t tried!
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My brothers here in the neck of woods pretend to be so righteous and show indignation every time something they don’t like is on TV or if someone is doing something they maybe wish they could do. It is important that it be said they are frauds and hypocrites apart from being ignoramuses and numbskulss!
A few days ago I saw on news a whole contingent of police officers burning weed plants. Sad thing is people are being killed elsewhere because of clan disputes while resources are wasted burning weed. How stupid and with misplaced priorities can people be!
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