Everyone believes: No, you are mistaken!


While visiting my friend Violet’s blog, I came across a link by one pastor Miller who uses one of the very tired arguments theists are fond of using, that because everyone talks about gods, they must exist. On this, the pastor is very wrong and we are about to see why.

Before we look at the pastors tired arguments, it is important to remind the reader that the word god is born of ignorance and fear when early man didn’t know shit! The only explanation they had for phenomena was that a god was doing stuff, and if it was things they considered bad, they created bad spirits to be responsible. Gods are therefore creations of our ignorant ancestors.

The pastor starts by telling us

They start with the assumption that their listeners are objective and analytical and can be persuaded by facts.  I doubt this is true.

which I presume is a reference to atheists or other non-believers. To turn the point on its head, what facts have the pastor to offer, if any, that we could discuss on his god position. Yours truly, is patient, and will be waiting for the pastor to wow us, maybe a few of my atheist friends may just as well change their minds, who knows!

What does the good pastor state as evidence to support his position? Let’s hear it

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things..[Romans 1:18-23]

which is Paul’s threat to the unrighteous. Paul, tells us nothing about the nature of god, other than that he is invisible and eternal how comes to this conclusion is anyone’s guess. Two, for, Paul’s argument to hold, one has to believe that the universe and all that is in it was created by divine fiat, and further one has to believe that the christian god is real since Paul is not referring to any other god. So, pastor Miller and Paul can go ahead and call us fools, but they have not med the burden of proof. They have not shown us why the universe needed a creator and what creator? I would also want to hear from the pastor a description of his god which does not involve negative attributes such as perfection and that also do not involve anthropomorphism, and am patient!

If, until now, you haven’t realized the good pastor is up to something, don’t worry, we are about to unpack it. His next argument couched in many words goes

If God doesn’t exist, morality is at best a mistaken byproduct of blind evolution.

and continues to say

 It’s just strange to me that we act as though objective morals should exist, when a universe without God doesn’t require objective morality.

Our pastor, as is common of other apologists, doesn’t tell us what these objective morals are.  And why shouldn’t evolution or by extension, nature not be responsible for bringing into existence beings disposed in such away that they act in a specific way. Must gods be involved. And while still on this, has the good pastor heard of the Euthyphro dilemma? It appears to me, he hasn’t and need to educate himself.

His next argument is on whether we can know anything in a godless universe. This is what he writes

In a godless universe, everything is simply matter.  Everything is made up of colliding particles.  Our brains in our heads are just a collection of particles that have come to function in certain ways

and which I would want him to show us if this isn’t the case. I would want him to demonstrate how our brain is not matter or agitated by material things. I know our brains are capable of abstract thought, which I think are informed by material things or things of possible experience. I would want the pastor to tell us what he thinks brains are and to further tell us what thoughts are.

His last argument, is to claim that without a god, there would be no language and we wouldn’t be able to communicate with each other. He writes

 Again, a material universe with no guiding conscience would not necessitate that words  have meaning or that language is effective.

which is simply false. We have evolved in a certain way, with brains big enough to develop abstract thought and communicate our ideas with others. A god is not required in this case and the pastor must know this. Unless, the pastor is telling us that the claim in genesis is true, that is, that his god confounded the language of men so they couldn’t build the stairs to heaven. If this is the case, the pastor is a very funny person, and I mean this in all the good ways possible :-P.

In concluding his piece of trope, the pastor writes

That person is acting like God is there at exactly the moment she says he isn’t.

Which can be translated to mean that at the moment when you say there are no tooth fairies, they exist. I don’t know if the good pastor is ready to accept this, and if he isn’t then he must show us where the difference is between his argument and mine.

He writes as a closing statement

So ironically, the person who says “God does not exist” is actually proving that God does.

Which, yours truly, responds by saying no, we prove no such thing and goes further to say that whoever says a god exists is ignorant of nature and how it acts, in short he is a fool.

And that, my friends, is my submission!

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

67 thoughts on “Everyone believes: No, you are mistaken!

  1. Question: If we’re made in this pastor’s god’s image, and he (the god) is invisible, why aren’t we?

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  2. Mordanicus says:

    Until quite recently, people used to believe in “ether”, the medium which was supposed to be everywhere. Most educated persons accepted its existence as a fact of life, until in 1887 two physicists, Michelson and Morley, demonstrated there is no such thing as “ether”.

    Like

  3. john zande says:

    I love Steve Sharps comment: “Repeated studies from various, secular sources have found that when self-described “atheists” are asked “Do you believe there is a God?”, consistently 70% of them are determined as lying with their “on” response via polygraph.”

    Boy, would i like to see the source for this BS

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  4. violetwisp says:

    I have to say, I’m glad he left the link – his post is a stupendously silly yet thoroughly entertaining read. It really helps you realise there is no getting through to some people. He obviously thinks it’s a ridiculous notion that our thoughts spring from anything other than supernatural fairy dust. Maybe he’s a medieval time traveller?

    Like

  5. Real real me says:

    I’d like the see the response from the pastor, you deserve it after this thorough post.

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  6. “It’s just strange to me that we act as though objective morals should exist, when a universe without God doesn’t require objective morality.”

    And THAT is the beautiful thing about atheism (or in my case Shenaniganism) – objective morality is required of us by neither a deity, church nor threat of eternal damnation. We are moral because we choose to be.
    I am a free-thinking individual who doesn’t lie, cheat or steal – not because the divine powers of good are waging a constant battle against evil in the universe, but because I choose not to. It’s not a struggle, I don’t need help being nice. It’s not even something I think about. I can’t imagine chaining myself to a religion on the gamble that I’ll be rewarded in some hereafter, only to have to schlep around worrying about sin and praying for help to be good, when not being bad just comes naturally already. To be cliche, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

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    • Human Morality does not come from religion of any kind, it precedes it. Purchase, or pirate this book for more information: http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Landscape-Science-Determine/dp/143917122X

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      • makagutu says:

        I think I have a copy somewhere, should be on my reading list

        Like

      • paarsurrey says:

        I think my friends here would like to read the following from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908- the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi:

        “Natural Conditions by Regulation become Moral Qualities

        We have already stated that natural conditions are not something distinct from moral conditions. When they are regulated and are used on their proper occasions, under the direction of reason, they acquire a moral character. Before they are controlled by reason and understanding they have not the character of moral qualities, but are natural impulses, however much they might resemble moral qualities.

        For instance, if a dog or lamb displays affection or docility towards its master it would not be described as moral or good-mannered. In the same way a wolf or a tiger would not be described as ill-mannered on account of its wildness. A moral state emerges after reflection and regard for time and occasion come into play.

        A person who does not exercise reason and deliberation is like a child whose mind and intellect are not yet governed by reason, or is like a madman who has lost his reason and good sense. A child or a mad man sometimes behaves in a manner that has the appearance of moral action, but no sensible person calls such conduct moral, as such conduct does not proceed from good sense and appropriateness, but is a natural reaction to the circumstances. “

        Pages 26-27

        Click to access Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

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    • makagutu says:

      What I find most interesting, is we are never told what these objective moral values are and whether we could not have reached them without referring to gods. Besides, one wonders whether they Sumerians were killing themselves left right and centre because this god had not thought it wise at this time to make himself known. Silly christians! They have given everything to the gods to the extent they can’t appreciate that man is himself capable of doing so much.

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  7. aguywithoutboxers says:

    The theists or belief system followers always rely on the same arguments to support their belief in the existence of a deity or deities. That’s fine if that’s all they have to offer. However, it’s a waste of their time to expect those who have no use for a belief system to change their minds solely based on the biased support the theists/polytheists offer (namely the man-written document(s) they hold dear).

    BTW: I did receive a rather unsettling email in response to one of my comments here. I guess I struck a raw nerve with someone. I reported it to WordPress.

    Much love and naked hugs, my Nairobi brother. I’m off for home on Wednesday!

    Like

  8. Ishaiya says:

    Hey don’t you know I am God?… I wrote a post about it…. you know neither Roy or Prayson ever did get back to me on that… oh well their loss, they may have learned something about their fallacious religion.
    Good post Noel 🙂

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  9. arkenaten says:

    Where does one even begin to have a discussion with someone like Miller?

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  10. paarsurrey says:

    “the word god is born of ignorance and fear when early man didn’t know”
    I don’t agree with you.
    Belief in one true God is enlightenment.

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    • makagutu says:

      Is there anywhere I have asked you to agree? I don’t think so! So you can keep believing as you do, just remember that belief in gods is born out of ignorance and fear, and this includes your one true nonsense

      Like

    • RE: “Belief in one true God is enlightenment.” – any particular “one true god”?

      “It is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists, and if religion were not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so.”
      — Ernestine Rose —

      “It is fear that first brought gods into the world.”
      — Petronius —

      “If we go back to the beginning, we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them and that custom, respect and tyranny support them in order to make the blindness of men serve their own interests. If the ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, the knowledge of nature is calculated to destroy them.”
      — Baron D’Holbach —

      “IF there be gods we cannot help them, but we can assist our fellow men. We cannot love the inconceivable, but we can love wife and child and friend.”
      — Robert Ingersoll —

      “Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves.
      Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.”
      — Robert A. Heinlein —

      “God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance, that gets smaller and smaller as time goes on.”
      — Neil Degrasse Tyson —

      “Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.”
      — Chapman Cohen —

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  11. UnRelatable says:

    I’m going to look like a spam but checkout my profile where I also met another irrational idiot

    Like

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