Interesting discussion

Over at Nate’s blog, there is an interesting discussion following a post, never going back, that he wrote yesterday. He writes about something I find to be quite interesting even from where I stand and that is about being open-minded and ready to listen and consider the arguments of the other side, whatever this side is and concludes by writing

I am still an open-minded person. But I also know enough about Christianity now to know what it is and what it isn’t. I didn’t lose my faith by forgetting things, but by learning things. And if I had known years ago what I know now, I never would have been a Christian in the first place.

sentiments which yours truly agrees with. He, however, ain’t the object of this post. One of the christians who has commented on the post has asked several questions or made assertions that I think shouldn’t go unchallenged and since they are quite a number, allow me to attempt to answer them here.

His first assertion reads

Atheists always, and I mean ALWAYS, blame God for the evil that men do. And because the atheist has blamed God for the evil that men do and declared Him guilty, God must therefore not exist.

which I contend is wrong on all counts. First, atheists don’t blame god. For, tell me, how would they, if atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of gods? Speaking for myself, I believe men act as they do and no other way. If blame is to be laid anywhere, I believe it is temperament, training and environment that a person grows up would be responsible. The christian has said god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, all the atheist is asking is why would a god with such a CV sit silently while his minions butcher each other? Is this too much to ask?

Next we are told

And then there is the other thing atheists ALWAYS do and that is lay out a set of personal standards that God must adhere to, or else he doesn’t exist.

But how can this be if the theist has not even gone beyond telling us what god is? We haven’t been told why the god of this particular apologist is necessary. And no, the theist creates god in his image and only gives him a big ass! Or as Voltaire[?] so aptly said, if god didn’t exist, it would be necessary to invent him.

And how ridiculous does this sound

Consequently, you are an atheist because you gave up your ability to reason.

I need not say anything about this except to ask, if one believes that a god who could create the universe by speaking a few let there be can only redeem mankind by drowning, earthquake or committing suicide and still claim to be using reason?

The person claiming atheists have abandoned reason, takes the existence of god as a given because he has been told so and writes

God created man with free will. If God intervened to stop evil, we would no longer be human because we would no longer be free.

which you and me know is far from true for there are many times humans have intervened to stop evil acts of others, and no one human being, I know of, has ever claimed omniscience or omnipotence. Next, how did god create man or because it is written in the bible it must be true? Forgive me, but unless reason quit through the door, how could one making such an assertion claim to have any left? And I would want a demonstration of what this author understands by free will and how he can show that humans have it.

God gave the human race the Bible which is the greatest compendium of ethics, human nature and social justice in human history.

You read that? I have read the Bhagahavad Gita and I can tell you, compared to the bible, it [the bible] pales in comparison. In fact it doesn’t even start to walk. So to claim the bible as being the greatest compendium of ethics in human history can only be construed to be statements of an ignorant person.

It is the existence of God that has kept man from destroying himself.

Far from it, it is the resilience of man, the desire to live that keeps man alive. It is for the love of god that man has killed his brethren, burnt them at the stake, ostracized them from society, put them in jail for holding contrary beliefs. So no, the existence of god, whatever god, has not been proven and as such, a claim like the above is meaningless!

God’s existence provides an objective, true standard of excellence for ethics, human development, personal behavior and justice without which man becomes a murdering, self-destructive, demented fiend.

If the god of the bible were to exist and to provide a standard for justice, the we sure would need to kill such a god. A god who punishes its creation for eating a damn fruit, drowns almost all men alive, kills children for the sins of their fathers, kills children of slave girls for the faults of the king [a king he hardened his heart] can’t teach man how to live with another! I refuse to accept that!

That’s why the greatest mass murders in human history were committed by atheist regimes that made it a point to reject the Christian ethics of Western culture.

This line has been repeated so many times one may actually believe it is true. Here is one response to this claim.

Yours truly wishes to stop here since some or most of the other claims and assertions he makes have been ably responded to by Nate’s very many guests.

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

16 thoughts on “Interesting discussion

  1. Mordanicus says:

    I guess that this particular person thinks that “true” atheists do not exists, maybe because it would uncomfortable for him. But you have given excellent rebuttals of his assertions.


  2. violetwisp says:

    That sound like an interesting post, will have a look. Atheists always blame a god for the ‘evil’ men do? Really, what confused Christians.


  3. john zande says:

    I got a headache reading through the comments this morning. I get this feeling that Lux and Silence can’t possibly be serious. The shit that comes out is just too insane to be real.


  4. I couldn’t resist popping over there and leaving a little tidbit for Silenceofmind: ““I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah, 45:7). You can’t cherry-pick, you have to believe it all.”


    • I left one for “Josh,” too, while I was at it:
      “Josh – I’ve been following your comments, and for a theist, you seem very level-headed, and I don’t mean that to sound patronizing, I mean you’re no radical, Westboro Baptist Church type.

      “I bought a WeedEater the other day. It came with an Operator’s Manual. The one thing I noticed, as I read it, was that there were no parables, no analogies, and no metaphors. The WeedEater people really wanted me to understand how to operate their equipment, and so they were extremely clear in their instructions and thorough in their effort to communicate with me. When I finished reading and started my new purchase, I knew exactly what to do – there was never any reason to shake my head and say, ‘WeedEater works in mysterious ways –'”


    • makagutu says:

      No cherry picking. Elsewhere, I think he had written the bible should be read allegorically, it would be interesting to know what this particular verse means in an allegorical reading.


  5. aguywithoutboxersRoger Poladopoulos says:

    Once again, another religious person attempts to defend the belief system by presupposing (assuming) that the sacred texts of such a belief are recognized as irrefutable and divine. The endless and mindless cycle continues. Great rebuttal, my Nairobi brother! I hope all is good with you. 🙂


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