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You know a true gem when you see one


Christians who claim that the Bible proves the existence of God are committing the logical fallacy commonly known as circular reasoning.

To believe the Bible, one must first believe in God. So saying that the Bible proves the existence of God doesn’t make any sense.

Dear friends, please tell me, apart from the Torah, the Bible or Koran for the monotheists, where do they get their idea of god from? Do I miss something? Can they have one without the other?

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

28 thoughts on “You know a true gem when you see one”

  1. clubschadenfreude says:
    November 13, 2013 at 22:30

    There are some theists who claim that they “feel” their god and that the book of their choosing just supports that. Of course, children who were abused to the point of not being taught how to talk, etc e.g. “feral children” show no signs of such innate knowledge of magical beings.

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  2. Arkenaten says:
    November 14, 2013 at 00:35

    Go speak to a South American Indian and ask him where he ‘discovered’ god
    He might tell you his ancestors encountered the Conquistadors as African tribes encountered chuffing missionaries.
    By and large, Christians make me sick

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  3. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    November 14, 2013 at 00:49

    Mak, this is a complex question and one I’ve researched extensively for close to a decade. I think we can begin to answer the question with a phenomena called a sensed presence.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-sensed-presence-effect

    A spontaneous sensed presence has been recorded on EEG. A phenomena also common in those with temporal lobe epilepsy and those who’ve sustained a brain injury. According to studies, more than half of patients who suffer a head injury without loss of consciousness go on to experience a sensed presence during the subsequent year. Keep in mind that approximately every 15 seconds someone in America sustains a traumatic brain injury.

    It’s higher in other countries, especially in war zone countries, such as the hub of 3 major world religions — the Middle East. Neurologists now state that traumatic brain injury is the signature wound of war. Approximately 62% of American soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan sustained a traumatic brain injury.

    I can also create this sensed presence in others by using neurotechnology, by creating a cortical evoked response using isochronic tones. With one particular client, she would request the same frequencies with every appointment — high theta, in the 6 Hz range. I dubbed it the ‘Jesus frequency’ in her file. She would have a sensed presence of Jesus. Swore up and down that Jesus was in the room with her.

    The first time she experienced it, I heard her weeping from my office. I came into the session room and asked her if she was OK. She said she was more than OK. lol Had she been of another faith, i.e., Muslim, it would have mostly likely been Allah she thought she’d ‘sensed’.

    I’m just scratching the surface here, but it’s a start in answering your question.

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    • makagutu says:
      November 14, 2013 at 22:56

      Interesting. Now what I see here is a situation where an experience is wrongly interpreted to mean something that it isn’t. For lack of a better word, I could say the lady was in a state of too much excitement that she mistook for a spiritual encounter with jesus. I don’t know if I understand correctly?

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  4. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    November 14, 2013 at 01:00

    The Spiritual Personality – Limbic Lability

    Summary: The personalities of people who have dramatic events through spiritual practices like prayer, meditation and ceremony are shaped by the altered-state experiences their spirituality creates. The part of the brain that manages our states of consciousness, the temporal lobes, is a little busier in these people than most, producing personality traits that appear over and over among spiritually oriented people.

    Behavioral Neuroscientist Todd Murphy

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  5. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    November 14, 2013 at 01:11

    Vectorial cerebral hemisphericity as differential sources for the sensed presence, mystical experiences and religious conversions

    Abstract
    Multiple variants of the sensed presence often precede mystical and religious experiences that are frequently followed by sudden, permanent changes in self-concept. The model of vectorial hemisphericity assumes that the relative metabolic activity of synaptic patterns between the cerebral hemispheres at the time of transient interhemispheric intercalation determines the affect, content, and type of experience.

    Depending upon the relative activity of the two hemispheres, intrusions of the right hemispheric equivalent of the left hemispheric (and linguistic) sense of self generate experimental phenomena that include “evil entities,” gods, out-of-body experiences, and alterations in space-time. Conditions that facilitate interhemispheric intercalation and the generation of these experiences are discussed.

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  6. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    November 14, 2013 at 01:14

    More details on Vectorial Hemisphericity

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  7. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    November 14, 2013 at 01:21

    Gives new meaning to “I and The Father are one”

    😉

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  8. aguywithoutboxers says:
    November 14, 2013 at 01:41

    Excellent point, as usual, my friend. This circular reasoning is also based on one additional fallacy: that I actually care about their belief system. Honestly, I have no interest, whatsoever. Have a wonderful day/evening! 🙂

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    • makagutu says:
      November 14, 2013 at 23:02

      The reason why I found this to be interesting is because it had been written by a theist who appears to have fun calling atheists names everywhere on the blogosphere.
      Hugs brother

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  9. Eric Alagan says:
    November 14, 2013 at 04:13

    LOL! Good one 🙂

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  10. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    November 14, 2013 at 04:49

    Jeesh Mak, it suddenly occurred to me that your question may have been rhetorical. If it was — my bad. If it wasn’t, I’ll attempt to address this comment.

    “Christians who claim that the Bible proves the existence of God…”.

    I’ll give you a scenario. An unbeliever may experience a sensed presence, a nirvana experience, or near death experience — but initially they don’t attribute it to a god experience. Out of curiosity, they seek out answers to explain the experience. This may lead them to read a religious book, i..e., the Bible. The Bible attributes these experiences (e.g. Paul’s journey to paradise) to ‘God’.

    This has also happened to cultural Christians who claimed to be Christian but didn’t really believe as was the case with neurosurgeon Eben Alexander.

    Then he had a NDE.

    “Although I considered myself a faithful Christian, I was so more in name than in actual belief. — I sympathized deeply with those who wanted to believe that there was a God somewhere out there who loved us unconditionally. In fact, I envied such people the security that those beliefs no doubt provided. But as a scientist, I simply knew better than to believe them myself.”

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    • makagutu says:
      November 14, 2013 at 08:13

      Dear friend, no need to apologize for the information you have provided.
      The experience these people have is a genuine one, the interpretation is what is called to doubt.
      The Christian gets her idea of god from the bible and I think this could be true of those who speak of a natural religion. They could have been brought up as part of organized religion but cannot continue following its teachings. This then is my contention, when the Christian or Muslim talks of god, he or she refers to the god of their religious books. And this idea is taught them or as the natives of diverse tribes, they would talk of some spirit

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      • N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
        November 14, 2013 at 15:51

        Mak, my friend, thank you for your graciousness. It is true that these books have spread across the globe like a virus and have been the main contributors of belief in the last several centuries. Before that it was oral. But the tradition of belief originally came from an experience.

        Your question was indeed a gem with many facets. I was attempting to address one of the facets that scintillatingly stood out for me. Your point is absolutely spot on. People start hearing the word “God” before they are born. Neuroplasticity within the womb. I do think that the Bible has often been used as confirmation to these experiences presumed to be god.

        Experiencing a sensed presence is very common — and especially if one is under tremendous stress. People will use anything they can to validate their experiences, including books like the Bible. But ‘proof’ it is not, no matter how real they thought their experiences were. I agree with you that most people ‘just believe’ on the basis of a book stating that god is real, and I know many who will defend this belief even though they’ve never read the very book they use to defend their belief.

        Thanks for some great fuel for thought. You’re posts are awesome. =)

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        • makagutu says:
          November 14, 2013 at 23:07

          Thanks my friend for the time you put into the responses. They are so informative.
          The part that I found odd with this comment was that it had been by a Christian commenting on atheist blog.
          For those who believe in a god of revelation, I don’t see a wiggle room out of the charge of circular reasoning.

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  11. Perspective Collector says:
    November 14, 2013 at 08:06

    It is a gem, and I was wondering if I could reblog it or link to it?

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    • makagutu says:
      November 14, 2013 at 10:08

      mate, you can do whatever you want with any of my posts

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      • Perspective Collector says:
        November 15, 2013 at 05:16

        Thanks heaps! I just wish Christians would stop using the bible as evidence with atheists. They can use it all they when talking to other Christians but why would the atheist care? I think they seem to miss this point and waste lots of breath.

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  12. Mordanicus says:
    November 14, 2013 at 09:41

    People believe, because the want to believe, not because evidence or reason.

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  13. ladysighs says:
    November 14, 2013 at 15:01

    I can only tell you where I got my idea of god from. I had this bible with illustrations in it and also a big book of bible stories again with lots of colorful pictures. Pictures never lie.

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