I will stop asking these questions of Christians for there must be something about my tone that stops them from responding. I don’t know what it is, but they keep off most of the time and when they appear all they say is am a candidate for prayer.
I am jumping the gun a bit here. I had told myself I would eventually finish the OT, it is boring, especially Leviticus with its thou shalt and thou shalt not, but I will finish. My interest is on the NT and I have two questions to ask on the baptism of Jeebus. Our search takes us to Mathew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
How many people saw the heavens open? Did Jesus dictate this passage?
How many people had the voice? Was it just localized to the specific place?
What is the general direction of heaven and how far is it from the earth? and a bonus question
Why do we no longer hear these voices?
Random thoughts 
Obviously, I can’t respond to any of these questions. I will caution you, my friend, that more likely than not, many of those of that belief system will answer you with the same responses that have been used for centuries. Nothing new and original has emerged from their thinking in decades, if not centuries. Much love and best wishes! 🙂
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Lets keep hope alive, maybe their pope has answers and since he is also infallible, maybe they could arrange for a dialogue between two infallibles
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Back in secondary there were some laws in physics i cant remember any but they dealt with nature. how did this sound travel?Please would somebody wake sir Isaac Newton from sleep to answer to us how this is possible
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And why didn’t the voice say, “this is me, I’m really pleased with myself!”?
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Interesting question. Since this voice was heard by very few people who didn’t write about it, am guessing the people who wrote this story just added this to it to give it the look of authenticity
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If the old and new testaments were read not literally, but instead metaphorically, what do you think some of these things might mean? Obviously, this mythology cannot be read literally, so then what is the metaphor?
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I love to read metaphorically or even allegorically. When we do that, where do we stop? The baptism was an allegory, the birth metaphor, the crucifixion metaphor, the resurrection metaphor. I want to know where the christian who suggests it is metaphor or allegory would want us to stop.
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Don’t stop! The entire book is not to be taken at all literally; that’s where fundamentalists fall down. I am not a Christian because the entire religion is a fable.
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I have an idea. I think for the bible writers, they wrote what they thought was fact at that point in time. The reason we have these many problems of interpretation is because people have taken the bible to mean more that it claims. That it is a message for all people for all time, which though is true to some of its parts, cannot be said of the whole book. What do you think?
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IMO, you’re spot on. Most xtians never second guess their upbringing and the label becomes part of their identity. People get crazy when their identity is questioned or challenged, even if you’re trying to help them step into the modern age. To me, the big flaw is trusting a dusty tome more than your senses and reason. I salute your on-going attempt to shine a light on those worn out fables.
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I think my voices are angry with me or maybe I drove them crazy..hahaha. Makes me glad I am not a Crispyun, as Ark calls them. 😆
Good questions Mak. Hope you get your answers. 😀
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Am hoping to get answers to these questions. Maybe I could also hear a voice calling me and not my boss looking for me to finish his work
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LOL! Or asking you to go and eat his grass. hahaha
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Or to kill my neighbor! You don’t know where this god stops!
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Exactly! 😉
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There are so many ridiculous passages in the Bible that if each one were to be isolated it is doubtful there would be any bible left and the only certain passage would be the bit about
Published by…..etc etc.
Aside from the fact that is is all make believe, these particular verses once more demonstrate that we are talking about the Son of God not God and how damned nonsensical the Triune really is.
Violet’s remark is spot on.
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I can’t say I will not be happy if we can have left Published by whoever as the only thing left of the bible!
Yes, Violet’s remark is valid.
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And why are we not performing even greater miracles than what Jesus did? Even while I was a Christian that scripture bothered me. I’d pray really, really hard for people’s severed limbs to grow back. I’d cry out to God to stop child abuse. And guess what? No signs and wonders, no healings or mighty deliverances for tortured children. Then it all is reduced to us mere humans not living faithful and holy lives. Worst yet, it’s just not God’s timing or will.
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There are cameras, no one would want to perform a miracle in such light
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So true, Mak. Good point!
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This is funny!!! 😀 Won’t the very strong light blind even the cameras? Or you metaphorically referred to light?
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We could at least record something! Miracles, whatever they are stopped happening.
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Do you ever read for metaphor? Lol
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I usually do that and then am left with no bible.
Again, whenever I think about the metaphor interpretation, I ask myself if the group that believed this stories and were told these narratives maybe as oral tradition saw them as metaphor or believed it to be true. As a comparison, the Greeks believed the Olympian gods were real and took part in human affairs. They believed the oracles sent people messages. We who are far removed from their times call these myths. Shouldn’t we treat the bible in the same way, as myth that is and as such we will not have a problem of contradiction or interpretation.
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I think we should see it as we see any stories, useful representations of human behavior. We use children’s tales and movies to teach things, so why should the bible be any different? Trying to prove it literally wrong is just redundant isn’t it? Of course it’s inaccurate with regard to anything contemporary, and of course they spoke in metaphor back then. Ancient literature tells us that. And people’s stupid beliefs in the unreal will always exist. Gays should be killed, babies are
miracles, aliens are real; there will always be a belief in the super real. I just think time would be better spent carefully examining bible stories for their usefulness than trying to pick them apart for an overly-obvious lack of realism. All that does is alienate people who find the bible something good. Wouldn’t it be better to read it like we do other literature? Appreciate beauty and tropism? Take the nice bits and copy them, use the bad bits as lessons? Does that make sense? Why should the bible be read any different than mark twain or Shakespeare?
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You make a lot of sense.
I will claim refund from the teacher who took us through English literature.
I agree that we can read the bible as metaphor and take the bits that are good or rather the bits from where we can learn something.
Do you think the believer who sees the bible as the word of god would take this approach? And what would such an approach do to his belief in the inerrancy of the bible?
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Yes as a matter of fact most people I know who read the bible or onto church see the bible this way. They believe it is something divine, but for humans to study carefully. And good religious leaders I’ve met in my lifetime view it the same way. Study of the bible is a careful and lifetime pursuit. There is no conflict in beliefs because they don’t believe the bible should always be a literal instruction, nor do they foolishly think that harsh laws from ancient worlds are still applicable with what we’ve learned over the years. The OT is seen as a place with great stories and adventure, like the movies or fiction, or cool historic texts; the dispels are the guidebook of time and can be summed up in two words: be nice. The New Testament is like a crossword puzzle and a sudoku rubies cube had a love child. There’s some weird puzzle-y shit in it and it ends with the metaphor to beat all metaphors. But they don’t fool themselves into believing that it’s perfect. I cannot speak for the stupid that really do take it literally because they are actually book-dumb. So e people just don’t get figurative literature. I go to school with tons of them. Can’t read poems to save their lives, and so never take away the real meaning or essence of the work. And they end up selling insurance and going to football games on the weekend. Dumb, gullible, easily manipulated, and easy prey. Those are the most dangerous of all because they’re little robots you can program to kill gays and bomb health clinics, carry out genocide and shoot up schools. Irony-if you read the bible you’ll see it warns of this over and over. It’s like the best anthology of The Dumb and Dumber.
Smart people get the bible. Smart people understand what they have in their hands, and they use it to live good lives.
The idiots, they’re too stupid, and no amount of proof will make a difference. They’ll still be stupid and do what they’re told.
I think the best action for atheists everywhere I to study the book carefully without malice. Without the pretense that they are fighting an evil.
Just present facts as thy are found. I think the anger coming from atheists is the same rage in the fundamentalists. There should be less rage and more quiet study.
The atheists I know are mostly line the religious people I know. They believe what they believe and they go about their business. But just like the religious people have their idiots, the atheists do too. They work up their own fire and brimstone, flinging around science and rhetoric to PROVE there is no god.
And i get the reason behind it. There is a desire, or belief, that if they can prove there is no god, then the pro-god zealots will shut up and stop trying to do bad things. But they won’t. Even if one were to prove there was no god, it wouldn’t matter. Some hustler would con the sheep lie into following him/her down some other path.
The best thing atheists and the religious can do, is just be quiet and let each other do as they do. For instance, I do not like the color orange. If I say that out loud, it is pretty certain that no one on earth will get in my face and try to convert me I liking it. God and not god are the same thing. No one should give a shit.
If you really want to fix the crazy people on both sides of the argument, fix the real problems that drive them so deeply into their bad ideas: fix the poverty and the shame, fix the water supply and bad food. Give people health and strength and watch the zealotry and hustles disappear. You don’t look to those things when you have love and a full belly. Sorry about any typos. Had to do this via mobile 🙂
Thank you for letting me say all this. You are a good friend.
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You have always been a good friend.
Thank you for your insights
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Thank you for all the knowledge 🙂
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Oh, and my brother and aunt hear these voices all the time
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I’m game.
1. How many people saw the heavens open? All the people who were there to be baptized by John. The NT isn’t specific on how many.
2.How many people heard this voice? All who were there to witness it. It was only in that area for all to hear.
3. How far away is heaven and in what direction? There is a hint that there are several layers of heaven. Earth being one of the lower levels. So heaven is from land upwards to the sky and beyond.
4. Why do we no longer hear these voices?
Yahweh confirmed His Son by His declaration in the time Yahshua walked the earth as a man. Yahweh’s voice can still be heard through the spirit by those who wish to listen. Especially while reading the Bible. Why do we not hear Him yelling from the heavens? Simply put: to seek His face one must humble themselves and turn to Him for understanding. All that needs to be said has been.
Reading the Bible won’t help you if you read it arrogantly. Coupled with the wrong intentions.
If the message was open for all to understand; then the enemy would have had his workers destroy it a long time ago.
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2# The gospels tell different stories. In one only Jesus was addressed in another the people heard a thundering voice. It is apparent it was not clear.
3# That’s an assertion in need of proof.
4# To hear god’s voice, one must first close their ears to every possibility of reason? How interesting!
1# It is interesting they don’t look to have been convinced and there isn’t anyone other than the anons who wrote the bible who saw it.
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I agree that most the testimonies do not line up exactly. Many assume that the NT was originally in Greek. I do not hold this belief. I also believe that the translators who did translate the Hebrew from Greek altered it. They are called scribes and the scribes worked closely with the Jewish priests. The evidence is in the continued use of the erroneous tradition to remove Yahweh’s name from the scriptures.
To learn from Yahweh you must first want to learn from Yahweh. Your must first admit that you don’t know everything. Reasoning skills and questions are needed. The attitude is the stumbling block.
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more favour. Wherefore he saith, יהוה (Yahweh)resisteth the proud, but giveth favour unto the humble.
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I meant to say the scribes who translated the testimonies from Hebrew to English and Greek have altered it. In the front of most bibles they admit it in today’s translations. Due to the traditions of the Jews. It was no different in Yahshua’s time. Seeing that the religious leaders of Yahshua’s time along with their followers wanted nothing more than to disprove who He (Yahshua) is. Using my reasoning skills along with the knowledge of the OT and NT combined; I conclude it was done in purpose to cause doubt. Which it does do for those who do not seek understanding from Yahweh. Yahweh predicted all before it happenes, and He explains it as well. Yahweh is amazing.
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If they admit it was altered, how do we know what much is authentic and what portion was altered or is this where faith comes in?
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Yahweh explains what is altered and He predicted it as well.
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Do you have a book where these are explained? Mind sharing
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It is explained all throughout the bible. It isn’t just one book out of the 66 that are in there. I will tell you this: everything is explained in an orderly fashion once you pray, and read it all the way through. I say this because people generally stop when they have a question. The answer is generally given further in the same chapter or further in the same book.
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Lets work with an example. There is the story of Lot screwing his daughters. How do I know this is corrupted and where is the explanation?
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I am familiar with this account. Lot was saved from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. His son inlaws stayed behind without a care in the world, and he left with his wife and two daughters.
His wife didn’t listen to the angels warning and she looked back and turned into a pillar of salt. That left Lot and his two daughters.
The daughters then decided to preserve their fathers line by getting him drunk and laying with him. This was a widely acceptable practice of the world in that time as a last ditch effort to preserve a family line.
If you read the account you would remember that they were alone in the mountains with no one else around. This explanation is within the same chapter.
Also note that they got Lot so drunk that he knew nothing. They didn’t continue to sleep with him. It was only for the preservation of his name.
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It appears to me you didn’t read the good book keenly. Lot left people in the nearest town to the mountain where they end up shagging as a family. Besides, your argument seems to imply that your god is fine with incest.
To say that Lot’s wife was destroyed for looking back on a city that has been destroyed portrays you and your god to be totally without empathy. How would she not look behind when several people she must have known and lived with were being destroyed? Where is your empathy? Where is your reason?
No wonder it is said that those who love gods so much can’t love their fellow men! How could they?
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I don’t know where you always get your info but it’s completely off. I reread the account while answering you to make sure that I didn’t leave anything out.
I know there are many commentary does sound atheist that discuss bible books, and this is where the problem lies. You turn to an atheist for answers about something they don’t even believe in you get error.
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You are being presumptuous that instead of reading the book I chose an atheist site to look for commentary on the story. I got news for you.
In the good book where Lot is debased, the anon author writes
The anon author does not indicate why he ran from Zoar or what he had to fear if he has just spoken with divine destroyer.
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The alterations done by the lying pens of the scribes are as follows:
His name was removed and replaced with pagan names,
His doctrine (scriptures are twisted and taught contrary to His instructions),
Scriptures were added to support false doctrines,
The testimonies were altered to confuse and cause doubt,
And His Sons true name was replaced to make it useless for both salvation and the miracles done in Yahshua’s ( known as JC) day.
The Bible in its entirety attests to these claims. One would have to pray and ask Yahweh to give them understanding. One would only want to truly know if they want what He offers.
Doctrines that don’t go in harmony expose themselves to someone who knows and accepts His true doctrines.
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You have your history upside down. Your saviour gets its type from the Pagan gods. Where this is not obvious, it is an attempt by the christian scribes to Christianize paganism.
The bible makes claims that cannot stand the scrutiny of reason. Every time men have studied it dispassionately, they find it spurious, ridiculous and sometimes even absurd!
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I am not a Christian. Chew on that! Lol
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Hmmm!
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Lol, I am going to bed.
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Sleep well, the day is just beginning here
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Raining and storming, but for the most part I slept okay.
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You?
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Have been well, a bit busy here and there but well. A bright sunny day is all we had here
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Life is busy. 🙂
Nice weather….rain is welcome here. The earth needs it. Sunny days will come I am sure.
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You have gone so far, to the translators and redactors. Who wrote the gospels?
Imagine going to a physics class and being told you must humble yourself before you can read this book. Would you take that lecturer seriously after that? Why should the bible be treated as such?
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All books that intend to teach do ask you to humble yourself in order to learn from it. Just not verbally, but it is expected. If you do not humble your mind; you won’t retain a thing no matter how many times you read it.
The Bible is no different.
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Who wrote the gospels? Originally they were letters written by Jewish apostles in Hebrew. Who wrote the Greek translations? Someone who wasn’t fluent in Hebrew and who had to rely on Hebrew scribes or a Hebrew speaking individual for help in translating the letters.
The scribe or person was then in a position to use the ignorance of the Greek against Him by keeping their tradition. In hopes to destroy any hope for those who are seeking salvation.
Yahweh predicted this, and explains it within His testimonies known as the Bible. And most of these predictions are in the most neglected part of the Bible: the OT.
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Do you actually believe this? Seriously?
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Yep.
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hey beloved, we have the vulgate and Septuagint translation of the bible, n its in tradition records that the LXX or LXXII scribes translated the bible each on his own and came up with the same translation, so who do u say wasn’t conversant with Greek?
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Translated from what to what? Does anyone know in what language the bible first appeared, if we can talk of a first appearance?
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I meant Greek to Hebrew since the other blogger argues that they were not conversant with Greek yet they all came up with same translation if we believe in the traditional explanation
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I don’t understand something here but I know where I will find you
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