This post was originally posted here. Some responses can be found here for those who are interested. We would want to add our two cents worth of commentary to it.
Reason 1
Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
To claim design, one must know the end or be in a position to know the end to which something has been done. There is no evidence anywhere the universe was designed not that it is sustained by any power other than those inherent in nature. Where is the evidence that the universe needed a creator.
We are given examples why this is the case and I will only deal with one. They write
The Earth…its size is perfect. The Earth’s size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth’s surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The earth just is. We have found ourselves on earth, we can speculate about how it would be if things were different, but that doesn’t change the fact that the earth just is. Thinking of how I would act if I were the world dictator doesn’t make me one. We are capable of speculation and most times we are misled by it as we forget to ground our speculative reason on what we know and can verify.
Reason 2
Does God exist? The universe had a start – what caused it?
This assertion is in need of proof. It would be a leap of several magnitude to come from the universe having a beginning to god did it. To rule out the universe always existing in some form or other is a case of special pleading.
Reason 3
Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
We don’t know. All we can infer is that order seems to be inherent in nature.
Reason 4
Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell’s behavior
Being part of nature and in nature, we wouldn’t expect it to behave other than it does.
Reason 5
Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him
Last I checked it is proselytes knocking people’s doors selling faith. No one I know of has met this supposed god. All those who claim to hear him say they hear a voice in their heads. I don’t know, but how can we tell they are not hallucinating. Why should we take the claims of one over that of another?
Reason 6
Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us
Bunk! Honestly I didn’t see this coming. I don’t think the Jesus figure as claimed in the bible existed. This is wishful thinking and not a reason to believe.
I find this very disappointing. I was hoping to be convinced there is some reason to hold onto belief in the supernatural, and then this is all! How sad.
To such anthropomorphic nonsense, I can only repeat what I’ve already said:
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And the fellow has closed comments to his post on TA. It seems there was a lot of fire.
I like this Adams’ quote
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In the Master’s own words:
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Regarding reason no.1: there at least a trillion planets in our milky way galaxy, there are thousands of galaxies in the Virgo Supercluster, and there millions of such superclusters. That implies a very huge number of planets. So even if a planet has a very small change of having the properties of Earth, having a truly astronomical number of planets, the change that at least one planet has the right properties will approach one.
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You know I agree with this comment. It is only a person with much ego who would make the assertion that we are so special
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This stuff just makes my head hurt. They are truly nutz.
Here’s a blog you might like. Hosted by Tish Farrell.
You realise when you visit. Enjoy.
http://tishfarrell.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/looking-for-smut-work-on-kenyas-highland-farms/#comment-2077
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Thanks for the link. I like it.
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Disappointing, sad, and damned aggravating. There are 200 or 300 billion galaxies in the universe. Even if we had warp drive ships like Star Trek has, we would not be able to get to them. Even science fiction doesn’t bother with the concept of galaxy hopping. Star Wars takes place in a galaxy far far away. Not in several galaxies. One. Even for a pure fantasy movie, galaxy hopping is too impossible to make believable. My point is, there may be hundreds of millions of populated galaxies in the universe. They may be common. Very common. Or, life may only exist here. Who the hell knows? No one. No one has been anywhere but here and to assume that one has a knowledge of anything but what’s here is a bold face lie, either that or an hallucination. We do not know that the universe, in some form or another, hasn’t just always been. We CAN NOT know that a god designed it just for us, the Christian god specifically, from nothing. There may always have been something. Or not. But we don’t know that. Not yet anyway. Maybe if humans live a few thousand more years, the scientific method will lead us to some testable, consistent answers to where and how this universe spun into being. But there’s no way in hell anyone knows that right now. I really dislike religion. Christianity in particular, but they all suck.
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Some not so much as Christianity.
We don’t know and anyone claiming otherwise is a liar for Jeebus, who we have no evidence lived!
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I agree. Christianity in particular annoys the crap outta me.
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I should say, Christians in particular bother me. If anyone actually did what their god, Jesus, said they should do, it might not be as annoying. You know, “Love each other as you would me,” and ” What you do to the least among you you do to me.” Do that. Act that way, and maybe, just, maybe, you’d be OK in my book. But that isn’t at all how they behave. Fuck ’em.
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I like your collection of quotes. Very interesting
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I thin k if the Christians acted as Yeshua commanded them, there would be very few left. What with hate your parents policy and the like, not getting married in the words of Paul since the world is ending and giving every thing to the poor. They would all be so poor maybe they wouldn’t be able to procreate anymore and we would be dealing with some other fringe group.
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Haha your first sentence in response to number five made me laugh out loud. Good one lol
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Am glad I could make you laugh
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Reason 7: IGNORANCE.
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assisted by credulity
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Mmmm, this porridge is just right! Goddidit!
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Haha
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If god did it, there would not be such stupid people. A perfect, omnipotent designer would have done better, so the mere existence of that post is proof of the contrary.
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Interesting observation nannus.
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So there is not only the problem of evil, there is also the problem of stupidity, especially in its religious form 🙂
As I wrote in an earlier comment some time ago, I think that ideology causes stupidity, not the other way around (at least in many cases).
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I like the sound of problem of stupidity. I also think ideology leads to stupidity
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I agree with the comment from Nannus above. I intended to remark on an aspect of the content but after reading that thought here, I’m going to adopt that as my standard response from now on. If the believers can employ the same, old, tired arguments over and over, then why can’t i? Thanks for publishing this, my Nairobi brother! Much love and naked hugs! 🙂
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Much love my brother! and you are welcome.
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A question that arises in my mind- even recently- and a conclusion I seemed to have reached. If one does not believe that there is life after this one on Earth- i.e. no belief in a resurrection, then one would not believe that a God exists. One would just believe that this is it- life on Earth, now as we know it- pain, suffering, scattered hope and joys here and there amid all the other stuff. One would expect to rise each day until death- living in the moment, striving for whatever aims one wishes to achieve. On the other hand, if one believes that there is much more than this life- no pain, no suffering, no unfairness, equal joy and hope for everyone, then one would believe that there is a God. One would believe in a resurrection, that there is life after this one. A life that was meant for us all along- freedom from anxieties of today. I choose to believe that there is more to life than this- waking daily to more news of crime- some more heinous as the days go by; riots and ruin and a handful of good news. I choose to believe that there is a God. I don’t know but I have faith, it might be blind faith, if you want to call it that. I have questioned- is there a God? Who created “him”? Etc Panicked at the thought that maybe there isn’t and this is it- all there is to life- you are born, grow up with common struggles, you strive to be a better person, to touch other people’s lives; you develop health issues and die- or get hit by a bus, drown or whatever– could that really be it?
I don’t know but I choose to believe that there really is a God and he created us and this world. Sounds funny, ridiculous to you? Well, it is your choice to believe or not to believe. Call me a fool… I don’t care. 🙂
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I reserve the epithet fool for those who have demonstrated they are.
I realize from your comment that you are most likely a Christian, that you believe your belief is the true one. There are many religions out there and you are aware some have no belief in the resurrection. That the highest level is nothingness or nirvana, where there is no rebirth? If immortality is what gives your life meaning, to each his own. I just don’t think we need immortality for life to be lived.
You say you choose to believe. I would like to know when you made this choice? Was it before you were fed religion as a child or fed religion as an adult? Is there anything you believe and are not convicted of to be true? Do you believe anything before you have reason to believe it is true?
You can still strive to be a better person without believing in immortality.
I hope to hear from you soon. Thanks for your comment
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We can all think whatever we like, none of which will change life as it really is.
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Agreed
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I dare say I have many questions about the faith I have chosen and an extension of your penultimate statement… what could we possibly be doing for all eternity (after being resurrected)? What was the real purpose of our creation? Was it so God could admire his handiwork, or bask in the praise of his creations? I have chosen to continue to believe- why? I have been through a whole lot and come out with a whole lot- it is much too much to be mere coincidence; or am I too lazy to think I could be in control myself and so choose to believe there is a higher order, another in control? I think it is something within that draws me to something higher than me. As a babe you have to be taught right? Some things you learn on your own, with others you need guidance. I choose, when I was being “fed’ as you put it, to accept what I was being taught. I have a long way to go for I am new in this walk- with a very colourful religious background so to speak- relatives and friends being Catholic, Jehovah’s witnesses, Rastafarian, and atheist. I am merely offering my comment, neither prodding, pulling nor shoving. Take care.
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Carmen, you seem to be thinking, instead of blindly accepting, and that’s all anyone could ask.
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Thanks for your comment archaeopteryx1.
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This is where I contend. How did you choose as a babe? Did you have any choice on the matter really?
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I see your point but I’m not sure if it is something I would not have wanted anyway. 🙂
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Fair enough.
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🙂
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Very disappointing indeed Mak. Those reasons means nothing to me. I think I’ll keep on believing in fairies then. 😆
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At least we can believe in google, it does have answers to most questions 😛
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hahaha! I totally agree! 😀
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“There is no evidence anywhere the universe was designed not that it is sustained by any power other than those inherent in nature. Where is the evidence that the universe needed a creator.”
I think the converse is more true:
What evidence is there that the universe is un-designed and it needs no sustenance?
Where is the evidence the universe needed no creator?
What evidence is there in nature that tells that it is self-sustained?
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What evidence is there that there is no god but allah?
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Am not sure we will get any. But keep trying
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Do atheists believe in any other god?
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How does that answer my question?
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Do you think that someone rolls the sun from east to west?
Do you believe that the earth is carried on the back of a turtle?
Are you generally obnoxious? Do you find thinking painful?
I have written in the post to claim the universe is created is to claim to know there was some intent on the part of the creator. You haven’t provided proof for the creator, why would I take you seriously that the universe was created?
And allowing for a moment that it was, and taking this analogy from the things men create, we can rightly assume the universe was created by a committee that kept bungling their experiments.
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“Do you think that someone rolls the sun from east to west?”
No; I don’t think so. The One-True-God (Allah Yahweh Ahura-Mazda) has fixed natural systems/principles/rules for the planets and stars; they move accordingly:
[14:34] And He has also subjected to you the sun and the moon, both performing their work constantly. And He has subjected to you the night as well as the day.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=14&verse=33
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How do you know there’s only one?
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“Do you find thinking painful?”
I enjoy good and reasonable thinking.
Is it painful to you?
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You don’t know how to think, Paarsurrey, only how to parrot the Quran.
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You know, I have to wonder what kind of freakin genius you think you are. You never add any useful information to a topic, only snipe from the sidelines with inane questions. Questions hinting at some sort of divine inspiration, then backed up with quotes from scripture as if any of us would take that seriously. There is a term for people like that. Troll.
You got nuttin. par for the course for creationists of any stripe. Just so you know I personally despise all religions equally,not just yours.
Until you and your kind actually come up with ANYTHING at all that resembles actual evidence that anyone capable of rational thought would take seriously you are just pissing in the wind.
Question 1. Define design. Tell us how to properly identify it. How can we tell the difference between something designed, and something not designed?
Question 2. Sounds a lot like the typical creationist response “you can’t prove there ain’t no god.” Nor do we need to. That is your burden of proof.
Question 3. Every bit of biological evidence supporting evolution does so with no detectable evidence of a designer. Unless…you have some way to do so? Are you sitting on some kind of evidence that would show life as we know it indeed needs some sort of divine intervention to keep it sustainable? …I didn’t think so. Troll.
.
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@shelldigger
“actual evidence that anyone capable of rational thought would take seriously”
Please define as to what you exactly mean by“evidence”?
Please don’t quote from a dictionary; give your own reasonable and rational thought on it.
Please
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Why should he? What have you done for anyone here, but quote crap from the quran?
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Apart from quoting the Koran, you have presented nothing worthy of discussion. How dare you ask others to answer your questions when you are unable to do the same?
Besides, in a different thread, archy told you to define what you understand by evidence and you skirted that question.
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Just what i was expecting. More questions. Zero answers.
Troll.
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I’ll take “Fallacy of the Single Cause, Begging the Question, Circular Reasoning, Incomplete Comparison, Ludic and Mind Projection Fallacies, Wishful Thinking, and Kettle Logic for 1000 Alex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Probably a few I missed…
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Those will do just fine
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“Do you believe that the earth is carried on the back of a turtle?”
No; that is not true.
Do Atheists believe such things? Very strange!
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No, but I believe that you have no evidence that your allah is the one true god, and if you believe in him, you are REALLY letting him down!
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Wait! Are you all implying what I think you’re implying? That Allah is NOT a giant space turtle who carries the Earth around on his back? Man! You dudes have just DESTROYED my world! Damn you! Damn you! I suppose you’re the types who like to tell 4 year old kids that Santa isn’t real either, eh? Then do sit and watch ’em cry? Cold, man. Really friggin’ cold. How do sleep at night?
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He can’t even prove that there that there are no other gods but his allah!
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When he gets to paradise, his allah will say, “No virgins for you, Paarsurrey! Here’s a 90-year old grandmother, that’s all you get!”
But since our boy here has spent his life with his nose in the quran, he doesn’t know anything about girls anyway, so he doesn’t know there’s a difference.
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Is there a decree that stops these people from venturing out of the Koran? I mean, there is a vast library just waiting to be read.
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He doesn’t want to corrupt his brain with reading anything else – Islam and its allah rule by the fear and ignorance of their subjects.
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The decree of “I’d rather remain ignorant than learn anything. It’s easier that way.”
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Oh yes, learning something new has the tendency to be discomforting
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Well give him an easier task. Prove Allah exists but he can’t quote from the Qur’an to do it. If such an all powerful dude exists, he can’t be that hard to find, one would gather. If found, be sure to have him ask if Allah is, well, you know, one of those guys who, shall we say, prefers the company of other gentlemen over the ladies for all things. Cause the dude really is a scared little girly boy when it comes to women. Treats them like shit. Little girly boys do that kinda crap. “HEY! Allah! Act like a damn man and grow a pair! Stop picking on the ladies! And Yahweh, if you can hear this, you cut it out too. You two boys should get yourselves a room and, you know, blow off some tension. Leave the ladies alone. Ya damn bullies!” Have say that. Once he finds Allah of course.
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Sorry for all the typos in that rant. Key board’s on the fritz.
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Do they know you’ve chewed through your restraints?
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Yes. The restraints were made of Christian babies and I ate them. Yummy.
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We apologise to tell you this. The turtle found the earth too heavy and left it to rotate on its own
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Check your TA PM’s, Mak —
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Man that stinks. I hope there’s at least a frog holding it up now.
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I don’t know, but I hear frogs tire very fast 😛
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