The things Christians believe

This comment deserves to be given an airing. There is a post by JZ on William Craig’s cosmology knowledge and references. I will not copy the entire comment but just the portion relevant for this post. You can visit the post to see the whole comment.

The comment is a justification of the bible being of supernatural origins.

1. THE BOOK OF GOD: The book of God asserts this fact for itself many times over. The question some raise is whether it was written by a man or revealed by God and recorded by man. The structure and message of the book demand a divine author.

Man could not set out to write a book of this size. He would not have the ideas of it, nor would man be able to produce the detail and precision of it. It presents God as THE God. It presents God as having a plan. It presents God only as deserving glory. It presents God as the absolute authority.

The unregenerate man could not subdue his own pride to produce such a God, nor could he exalt his talents to a level capable of producing such a book.

This is an assertion in need of proof. The bible being a collection of many books written over a long period of time has on every page the stamp of man moving from a barbarian to a more civilized being but not getting there. Most of its commands are abhorrent to any rational being. The Muslim makes the same claim about his holy book. How do we separate which is the most authentic? Man creates gods all the time in his image and the bible is a library where god is created in the image of the man writing it.

2. THE BIBLE AND MONOTHEISM: The Bible presents monotheism – one God, not many. Mankind has always had many gods, be they wood, clay, gold or silver. Idolatry is in every civilization to some extent. The Bible presents a one-God religion. How could man devise such a thought as one God in a world of many gods?

The bible presents many gods. Anyone who has read the bible would know the idea of one god is developed only later by the priestly writers. Otherwise as we start, as early as chapter 3, we have god saying man has become like one of us. One could argue that this reference is for the royal we, but I disagree.

3. THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY: The doctrine of the Trinity is so complex yet so simple as to demand a divine origin for the Bible. The Trinity is three persons in one God. Stated it is simple yet the explanation has evaded man since the subject was undertaken for study. We cannot explain the how of the Trinity only the fact of it.

The work each member of the Trinity is involved in is also very complicated – the Fatherhood of God, or the perfections of Christ. Man cannot adequately explain these things so how could he devise them?

The doctrine of the trinity is a creation of the church fathers and was resolved through violence. Those who carried the day had their way. Tertullian who is among the early church fathers to write on it, tells us nothing comprehensible. Their is an undisclosed premise in this statement that three personages represented in the trinity exist. There is no evidence for the supernatural and as such only the credulous believe such stories.

4. CREATION: The creation is the beginning of the content of Scripture. This creation is presented as fact and is described in Scripture. Man’s explanation of the beginning of the world is tied up in evolution. Even with the best product evolution could produce, that person could not have produced the Biblical account. Evolution is shot through with problems and gaps. Man could not devise a creation as perfectly presented in Scripture.

Any one who reads his bible should look at the commentary on Genesis. The OT where the creation story appears is a Hebrew story of how they saw the world around them. It is not a statement of fact. To take it as fact because it is mentioned in the bible to quit being reasonable. It is to ask for exclusion in the place of rational debate. The person who insists the bible gives the best creation account has evidently not read anything else on that genre. Man devised the creation story. Man is speculative and whenever we leave the abode of reason anything is possible. To not credit man with this ridiculous story is to underestimate the ability of man to come up with stories.

5. SIN: Sin is presented in Scripture. Forty authors, are in complete agreement on sin and its existence. Man could not devise such a thing as sin from his own mind. Sin is a divine statement and idea not a man made doctrine.

Sin is a creation of the bible and the priest. Without it, the priest is jobless. What does this person take man for? He devises things everyday and gives them names.

6. THE CURE OF EVIL ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE: The Bible’s cure for sin is so divine as to demand divine authorship.

Man would not devise a plan of salvation because without Scripture he doesn’t know he needs it. Even if man knew he needed salvation he could not dream up a plan whereby all could be saved apart from works or vanity.

Man could not devise a plan of salvation where the one redeeming would gain all the glory. Man could not come up with such a beautiful plan aside from having it revealed to him by God.

This is the most ridiculous part of this comment. Of course, the bible would have to have a cure for its problems. It created them and the solution it gives is blood sacrifice. It is created by a barbarian. The way of the bible is scapegoating. If this is seen as the best for the divine, I want to be divine. I have an easier solution. The Greeks writing earlier than the Hebrew barbarian didn’t see man as fallen and in need of salvation. Their gods are modeled around the best among them. The claim that the bible story of salvation, a salvation we don’t need, is a perfect thing reflects how credulous the author of this book is.

7. THE EXTENT OF BIBLE REVELATION: The extent of the Bible demands a divine author. It reaches minutely into eternity past as well as eternity future. Human authors aside from revelation could not make up such detail nor such broad perimeters.

The bible written by men and over a long period of time would capture the many different facets of life. One only need be an observer and participant in life to see how this is possible over a millenia. If we were to collect a few books written in the last century alone and combine it in one volume, one would be amazed at how much of the human story could be detailed in one book. To make this claim for the bible ignores many facts; the bible is a collection of books by diverse authors writing to different audiences over a long period of time. There is nothing unique in its composition.

8. THE ETHICS OF THE BIBLE: The ethics that the Bible produces have never even been hinted at in man’s religions. Purity and holiness of life are the divine standard while in most of man’s we find debasement and immorality.

The Bible presents man as an utter failure and unable to help himself. Man in his vanity even today has trouble comprehending such things, much less making them up.

Only a divine author could take a moral system such as Judaism and lay it aside for another system so different yet presenting the same morality as Christianity. Man could not come up with such a moral standard based on the teachings of a book without revelation from God.

This is an outright lie. The writings of Buddha do not teach debasement. The Gita do not teach debasement. The writings of Homer do not teach debasement and these are not even religious. The writings of Marcus Aurelius, Cicero, Cato, Xenophon, Epictetus, Epicurus do not teach debasement. For a rational person to make such a claim is evidence he hasn’t read anything other than the bible. The bible on the other hand teaches debasement in some of its pages. Lot sleeps with his daughters and there is no reproach. The family of Noah reproduce with each other and there is no reproach. Adam’s family must have had incestuous relationships[if they lived] and there is no reproach. There are many more examples to be found in the bible, one only has to look. We find in the life of Solon an upstanding man, the life of Socrates is above reproach, the life of divine Plato is above reproach! What do these people read?

9. THE CONTINUITY OF THE BIBLE: The continuity of Scripture declares a divine editor and revealer – 66 books, 40 authors and hundreds of years of history. The authors are separated by time, space and education. They come from all walks of life and most of them never met one another, yet they came together to form one central story of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

He is shown as pre-incarnate. He is shown in prophecy as coming. He is shown as here in His first advent. He is shown as coming again in the future.

One man could produce a work with continuity but this combination of authors and times has to be divinely assembled. Man could not produce such a work.

The authors of the bible are anonymous. The bible was compiled by the church and the strongest faction had its way with what books made it to the cannon.

10. PROPHECY AND ITS FULFILLMENT: Prophecy along with its fulfillment is proof that the Bible is of divine origin. Man can think and project what might happen in the future based on knowledge, history and common sense, but man cannot accurately predict specific occurrences and have those occurrences come to pass. The Scripture is full of prophecies that have been fulfilled and which will yet be fulfilled.

It has been shown that what is called prophesy has been written after the fact. To prove prophesy, the claim can’t be ambiguous. It should give dates and an accurate description of what is expected. If it involves reinterpretation of what the bible authors could have meant it can’t be prophesy.

11. TYPES WITH THEIR ANTITYPES: The types of the Old Testament and the antitypes of the New Testament are of such splendor that they must have divine origin. The fact that the type was set to words by a person other than the one setting down the antitype, and this being done hundreds of years apart, shows divine origin. This would require divine intervention!

Bunk! What antitypes? There is still sacrifice in the NT except in this case it is god killing himself to himself. In the OT Hosea or Amos am not sure who, is made to teach that it is important to take care of the less fortunate. There is no originality in the new testament.

See comment by Liberty of Thinking below for an explanation on types and antitypes. Yours truly was ignorant of what these are.

12. THE BIBLE AS LITERATURE: The Bible is considered great literature even by the unsaved. If a man had been setting these great words down, he most surely would have left some personal opinions and pronouns to let the reader know that it was he that had written the work.

The truths are not from the men but from their God so that they left no opinion of their own or personal pronouns to lay claim to any of the truths.

Many of the church fathers have been prolific writers, however, none of these have even touched the clarity and preciseness of Scripture, nor have they touched the literary quality of the Word.

The bible is considered such in mainly the western world. This however doesn’t make its claims true. The teachings of Buddha are considered great literature by a greater majority of the world population than those who consider the bible thus. This cases of special pleading shouldn’t be used in a rational debate.

13. THE BIBLE AND SCIENCE: Science is in constant revision. The world was flat – remember – and now it is round. The scientific world is always redoing and redefining to fit the exposed facts. The Bible on the other hand has always been acceptable in all ages without revision or redefining.

Where the Bible has seemingly contradicted science in the past, the scientists have found that they were in error in later days.

No, the world has never been flat. The bible was wrong in its claims. Science is revised because every day we acquire new knowledge. There is no time I remember in my life that we have preferred a biblical explanation to a scientific one. And anyone to correct me if am wrong. I will withdraw.

14. THE BIBLE AND TEMPORAL POWER: The Bible is not dependent upon political power, or clout to get its job done. The believer can do the work of the Lord with or without the help of the governmental powers.

Man naturally, when he wants something done, will try any means to achieve his end. They often use political power, or strings with politicians, to achieve their goal.

If man had written the Bible he would not have been able to come up with the idea that man could do the work of the Lord relying on the heart and mind of others rather than political power.

The bible needed the Roman emperors to take hold. Without the conversion of Constantine and some successive emperors giving support to Christianity, the world would still be populated by numerous gods as it is still anyway! Man wrote the bible and man has spread it and mainly through fraud or violence and many times both.

15. THE BIBLE’S ENDURING FRESHNESS: The constant new blessing a person gains from the Word even when he has read, and read, and read a portion there is always something more to be gleaned from its content. No other literature can make this claim to freshness and vitality.

This is true of most books. There is nothing special about the bible except that many people think it is.

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

86 thoughts on “The things Christians believe

  1. Speaking of debasement, how many times did this commenter state that man couldn’t have done x, y, or z? Aesop was credited with moral teachings 600 years before the christ. Hinduism predates monotheism. Budhism predates it. The pyramids predate it. If you read the OT carefully you can see that Genesis predates monotheism. That comment was a huge long argument from ignorance. We have 40,000 year old cave paintings that demonstrate the rudimentary elements necessary for the concept of monotheism.
    The stone tablets of Moses are predated by the law inscribed in stone by the babylonian king hammurabi. In the story of the exodus that almighty god he claims was on top of the mountain and at the foot of the mountain the Jews were worshiping other gods. They were so “frightened” of the real actual god that they worshipped others instead. Even the Jews could not experience god in the material world. This guy claims so much about the book, but it sounds like he’s not read it at all. As for human inventiveness, the Epic of Gilgamesh dates to 18th century BCE. The oldest written story existed for at least 400 years before Genesis is thought to have been written.

    This commentor you found is clearly not well informed, or willfully uninformed… he argues from ignorance.


  2. Mordanicus says:

    There are numerous books written by man which are longer than the bible, and also more coherent than the bible.


  3. john zande says:

    Hope you don’t mind, but i’ve alerted Bobby to this and may just pop-in for a “chat” 😉


  4. “For a rational person to make such a claim is evidence he hasn’t read anything other than the bible.” This person, Mak, is not rational. It is not rational to make the statements this person makes here. Such statements are delusional and laden with hubris. As such, they are abrasive to the cognitively unimpaired, and insulting to anyone with the ability to reason that a world exists outside of their own narrow perception of it.


  5. that first assertion is hilarious. I guess that the TrueTheist involved has never been to a book store. Indeed, I think that JRR Tolkien must have been a god then or maybe George RR Martin (Game of Thrones) if sheer detail and word count to make a divine book. Those puny human writers are better at this supposed god and its supposedly divinely instructed writers at continuity. The book has failure after failure, claims of killing all of a tribe and then that tribe reappearing; the supposed utter destruction of cities to the point that no human will ever find it, but that city still around.


  6. Superbly superb post, Noel.


  7. nannus says:

    Don’t know if I should laugh or cry.
    Ideology causes stupidity. A man brainwashed by this nonsense obviously could not have done all these things, so if he is describing himself, o.k.. We are obviously not human.
    The terrible thing about the human mind is that it is quite universal and as a result, becoming stupid is one of its possibilities. The way how to do it is exemplified here.


  8. Hi Noel,
    I’m back for now☺
    Don’t even try to understand these semi-doct zealots.
    Everything he/they bring up to defend the bible boils down to ONE principle, which nicely brushes away in their eyes, any opposition, namely that “the unregenerate mind cannot comprehend the things of god”. They, as the regenerate and privilleged few, look down upon all others with a condescension hard to understand from outside.
    Been there, done that, trust me:-(
    For them, a string of hope is better than confronting reality as it is, in its useless hopelessness, spotted now and then with bits of joy…
    I sometimes miss that hope, even if I knew all along that something’s not right with it.
    For those with some knowledge of psychology, christianity is a delusion with several leyers of individually built lines of denying the obvious. The higher the rank, the deeper the trench, and the more sophisticated. The big ones of today won’t even use these Sunday school arguments. This is how you know their “level”…
    Take care☺


    • makagutu says:

      How happy I am to see you!
      Your recent posts have been full of great insights leaving me at a loss of what to say.
      Many believers when told it is a delusion, they say it is an affront. I hope many could read this comment.


  9. paarsurrey says:

    “11. TYPES WITH THEIR ANTITYPES: The types of the Old Testament and the antitypes of the New Testament are of such splendor that they must have divine origin. The fact that the type was set to words by a person other than the one setting down the antitype, and this being done hundreds of years apart, shows divine origin. This would require divine intervention!”

    I don’t understand as to what the Christians understand from “types in the OT and anti-types in the NT”.

    Anybody please explain.



    • Good question. I have no idea. Must be the Lord striking me dumb. Mak, do you know?


    • Hi, this must be confusing if one doesn’t understand Greek and Latin. There are two issues here:
      1.For the Greek version, Type is the OT model to be fulfilled by its Antitype in the NT. Classic example Jonah emerging from the great “fish” is the Type, jesus emerging from the grave is the Antitype. Please note that in Greek, Anti means “in place of” rather than “against” with which has come to be synonymous. Therefore unknown to many, all Popes, as vicars of Christ are antichrists;-) according to the original NT language.
      2.For the rather Latin thinking, it is used as Antetype and Type, where the Antetype is the model predating the Type. Ante is used as a prefix for predating concepts. It means before/in front.
      I hope I wasn’t more confusing…


  10. Ron says:

    Hi mak,

    While it doesn’t diminish your rebuttal, I thought I’d let you know that the comment you’re responding to was lifted in its entirety from this unaccredited source:

    Nor is this an isolated incident. A quick check will reveal that most (if not all) of bobbie’s comments are verbatim copy/pastes taken from elsewhere.


  11. Arkenaten says:


    And that’s all I have to say…


  12. The Bible never claimed the earth to be flat or having the sun turning around it. It where church-fathers of the church who also introduced the trinity, something which can not be found in the Holy Scriptures.

    Let you be reminded that there are many Christians who do not believe in the ‘Holy Trinity’ and worship really only One God whilst the others worship three gods of which they also make pictures and statues, though the Bible, which we consider to be the Word of God, is very clear, no pictures may be made of the Divine Creator, the Elohim Hashem Jehovah.


    • makagutu says:

      You seem to me to have not read your bible quite well.
      When in the OT Joshua says hos god stopped the sun for 7[?]hours so he could keep rapine and destroying his enemies, what does that imply?

      I know it is the church fathers who introduced the trinity and it is the same church fathers who decided what was to become the biblical cannon.

      I am aware of the claims of no true christian. I think it is a contradiction of sorts to say there are those who believe in just one god. What happens to the other personages, that is, the god son and the ghost- holy or otherwise.

      Well, the bible commands prohibit or command many other things which I could hazard a guess you don’t do so this in a sense is to me cherry picking at its best.


      • Many Christians do not believe in the Holy Trinity. That doctrinal teaching is brought in many years after Jeshua’s death.
        According to the Bible Jeshua from Nazareth, better known today as Jesus Christ, is the son of God and not god the son.


        • I say he’s a son of a b….. You get the idea.


        • makagutu says:

          Well, and you should know if you don’t already know that there is no evidence for Yeshua or son of god just like there is none for the god.
          Many Christians believe different things. That I know. So tell me, do you believe in god the father, the son and the holy spirit or you just believe in god, the one created by men in the OT?


          • About Jeshua there are enough historical materials outside the Holy Scriptures. There are even more writings found on him than on other people who lived in the past.


            • makagutu says:

              Please name any of these. I would be glad for us to consider them together. And am dilligent, just so you know, in the search of information


              • Have a look at some of our websites where the historical proof is given about the different men who where called Jeshua around the time of the one called Messiah.
                Also go to the Jewish libraries and look at the many stories written about the first Christians.

                It is not because you might think like others that Jesus would be god and when you do not believe in a god than he would not have existed. Jesus is not God and Jeshua never claimed to be God. Denying his existing on the matter there would not be proof enough than euripides, Pythagoras and many others certainly would not have existed because much less is written about them. By Jesus Christ, Jeshua the Nazarene Jew, there are much more religious plus civil writings than many other historical figures. (Please go to your library and find out in the many historical books.)


                • makagutu says:

                  I have heard of a few of them, and I have heard also about the first Christians, if we can call them that.

                  And stop lying. The claims about a Nazarene Jesus only appear in the bible and these have been found to be wanting as evidence. I thought you know this.

                  I asked you to give a list of these writers you mention and you still skirt the matter going round in circles making claims that there were others by the name of Yeshua.


    • No one worships the Holy Spirit as a god. He’s kinda just along for the ride, living off the rep of Yahweh and JC. I say, kick his butt OUT, and make him earn his god status on his own merits, that free loader!


      • makagutu says:

        I hear they say god the father, the son and holy spirit. Maybe god is all these at the same time or one at a given time depending on what the believer has in mind then


        • They do say that. I was clowning around. They SAY the Spirit is a god too, but COME ON!!! He’s no Jesus! And what friggin’ ocean did HE ever help Moses part, eh? Exactly! He’s riding the coat tails of JC and Yahweh. Kick the bum out! Make a Holy Duo.


        • God is only One Eternal Spirit. Jesus was a man of flesh and blood and never claimed to be God. Please look into your Bible. God can not be seen by man or they would die. Jesus was seen by many, though they did not die. Jesus even brought some one out of death.
          god can not be tempted, but Jesus was tempted more than once. God can not sin, but Jesus could sin but did not.
          God can not die, but Jesus really died.
          So God is none of what you describe “at the same time or one”.


          • And he drives a kick ass Red Mercedes Convertible! Jesus only drives a yellow 1999 Honda.


          • makagutu says:

            Ah now you have solved my problem of what god is. one eternal spirit. How many spirits exist and are they all eternal?
            The same bible that says man cannot see god and live, also says Moses saw god and later on that the same god showed Moses his hindside. Do you actually ever read it?
            Are you saying Jesus was just a man, nothing more?


      • Ron says:

        Whoa, hold up there! Who came upon Othniel, the son of Kenaz, who rescued Israel from its oppressors? Who popped Mary’s cherry? Who descended upon Jesus like a dove? Who blew in like a violent wind and gave the apostles the ability to speak in tongues of fire? Let’s give the boy some credit here.


        • the Holy spirit is not a person. It is the Force or Power, the Speaking, the Being, the Thinking, the Handling of the divine Creator God, whose name is Jehovah.


        • Secondary stuff man. Who got tortured and crucified? Who parted the Red Sea for Moses, and, who created the cosmos from scraps? Not the Holy Spirit. Oh, no, Mr. Spirit was out banging babes in college somewhere while Yahweh was busting his hump building a universe and a son he could torture later. Nice try, pal. The Holy Spirit is only a Super Friend, not a real JLA member like Superman or Green Lantern.


          • Ron says:

            Tortured and crucified? Serves him right. Who told that rebel without a cause to go bucking the establishment anyways? If you play with fire you’re gonna get burned.

            As for YHWH busting his hump—puh-leez!! Spoke a few “Let there be-s” and then patted himself on the back before taking a long rest. Not a single peep about the billions of non-union angels employed to fulfill all those crazy demands on such a tight schedule. And by the looks of it he’s been resting ever since. Lazy slacker didn’t even bother to clean up after himself. That’s an incomplete in my book.

            And if the Holy Spirit isn’t important, then why is it the only one in the party that can’t be mocked? Blaspheme big G or his son, no biggie, Blaspheme the HS and you’re toast.


            • Right. I forgot about that. Jesus warns us not to do that, I believe. Sneaky little bugger, that Spirit is. OK, he’s in. He can be a god. Hell, Loki is, and he isn’t a big buff dude. He’s just tricky.


            • makagutu says:

              YHWH is a lazy bummer. Takes a whole day to say let there be… and punishes man to sweat his brow to work, something this god has no experience of ever doing? Someone get me this bummer, I would have my legs up his ass!

              Now that part is fishy. How can we not make jokes about the holy spirit


        • makagutu says:

          There is a question Ron, it is reported the Jesus fellow says he will send his disciples a helper, a helper which I think was to be spirit- holy or otherwise- can we say before his sending the spirit, there wasn’t any doing the rounds?


          • Ron says:

            Nah, the Spirit of the Lord was kept plenty busy, even in the Old Testament. This site provides the details and a magnificent summary:

            “According to the Bible, what happens when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon somebody?

            Well, the short answer is this: a Spirit-possessed person usually kills things.”

            {On a side note to bobbierileyjr: this is how one properly credits the works of others.}

            It’s the kind of “helper” I’d rather do without.

            Oddly enough, when I once asked an apologist (specifically, the one I mentioned on the “Is atheism a religion?” thread about two weeks ago) whether or not he considered himself filled with the Holy Spirit—he changed the subject.


            • makagutu says:

              I would change the subject. I will visit the page.
              Having visited the page, I agree with you no one would want to be visited by the spirit of god. It is a killing spirit so it seems.
              I read the comments and one person writes

              As I wrestle with scriptures like these I have to ask, what does it say about God, and how does it relate to me?
              The best I have come up with is that these scriptures show us the need to eradicate sin form our lives.
              Genocide in scripture is troubling indeed.
              Interesting post.

              and am asking myself where does sin come into the picture here?


              • Ron says:

                Theists have the unpleasant task of trying to reconcile their concept of an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful god with the reality of all the pain and suffering that surrounds them, so they try to rationalize it with unconvincing platitudes like “God must have a higher purpose even if we can’t understand it.”

                It’s eerily characteristic of Battered Person Syndrome:

                – The abused thinks that the violence was his or her fault.

                – The abused has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere.

                – The abused fears for their life and/or the lives of their children (if present).

                – The abused has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.


            • {On a side note to bobbierileyjr: this is how one properly credits the works of others.}
              Only those without Jesus in their hearts need to give credit like this. The followers of Jesus? Hell, Jesus made the whole damn world for them to use and/or abuse any way they wish. Amen.


  13. Ron says:

    The biblical flat earth claims are implied throughout the texts:

    In Daniel 4:10-11, the king describes seeing a tree so high it was “visible to the ends of the earth.” This is an impossibility on a spherical earth.

    Matthew 4:8 and Luke 4:5 claim the devil took Jesus up a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and Matthew 24:30 says “the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

    Again, these things can not be witnessed on a spherical earth.

    And the following passages imply the biblical authors believed the sun revolved around the earth:

    “So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.” Joshua 10:13

    “‘This is the Lord’s sign to you that the Lord will do what he has promised: I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.’” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.” Isaiah 38:7-8

    But you’re right about the trinity… there’s no specific mention of that found anywhere in the Bible.


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