This is a discussion going on here that I know being an emotive issue should result in some deep thought.
I suggest one reads why men want to rape and if you have time to read The Myth of Monogamy: Fidelity and Infidelity in Animals and People
I am interested in your views.
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I’m not a member over at Think Atheist, but I wonder if Bella Rose knows about this blog:
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/
I think education is key. Rape is simple, yet complicated. Signals sometimes get crossed. Sometimes girls play dangerous games. I never think a woman asks to be raped, but there are things she can do to mitigate her chances of it.
Bottom line, though is, I believe rape is about dominance and power. Education is key to this whole debacle of mixed signals. Most rapes do not occur because of mixed signals, though. Yes means yes. Anything short of that means no. Both boys and girls should be educated on that. The lack of the word “no” is not a yes.
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Thanks Ruth.
I have sent her the link.
I like what you say and I don’t think there is anywhere I disagree
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We like to think of rape as violent. Sometimes it isn’t. Coercion is a form of rape. I didn’t always know that and I’ve beat myself up for that. I can understand Bella Roses’ self-flagellation in that regard.
Coercion is about dominance and power and manipulation. It’s not about making babies.
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Have you been able to read her post?
It is sad to even think of it.
Rape is a difficult and emotive topic.
I think this is the second article I have seen where the author makes an evolutionary case to explain it.
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Yes, I did read her article. I can understand her wanting to find some explanation that means it isn’t her fault, even if that explanation is garbage. She’s in survival mode. I can relate and my heart breaks for her. I find the evolutionary model difficult to wrap my mind around. There are many willing female participants in sexual activity. There is no need, evolutionarily speaking, to take it. This is why it makes no sense to me. Evolution typically takes the path of least resistance. Why struggle to obtain something in one place when you could easily obtain the same end with little to no effort elsewhere? Just because some humans prefer multiple partners does not imply the necessity to take anything by force nor coercion.
The opposite view helps me. Maybe I’m just wired differently. I thought I was weak(I was) and easily manipulated(I was), but understanding that it was a power trip for my abuser to be able to manipulate and dominate me helps me to better know that a) all men are not like that and b) it wasn’t my fault. It’s not my fault that he is an abuser. It’s not.
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What happens when the guy thinks he isn’t able to use persuasion to attain his ends and resorts to rape? Am not sure they hope to impregnate the lady in this case? Maybe they think in the off chance she could conceive?
Maybe in a sense rape would be a path of least of least resistance. You are the stronger one, you don’t have to play by the rules, so get what you want by force? I don’t know.
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I have a very hard time conceiving of a scenario in which impregnating a woman is the objective in either coercion or violent rape.
I see your point about being the stronger one and not having to play by the rules; I just don’t see how that fits into procreation. I think in that article you linked to one of the rebuttals was that just making a baby and walking away from it wasn’t a very good way to propagate the species. There was very little chance that any offspring would even survive in that type environment.
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That is an important question and one of the answers I can proffer is that in our species, child rearing is mainly done by females and as such the investment the man makes is sometimes or many times not comparable to that of the mother. This man can thus spread his oats and walk away
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If rape is an evolutionary mechanism/trait to have as many partners as possible, does that mean that all men are capable of rape? Or does that mean that most men have evolved past that primal instinct but a few remain neanderthals wielding their club?
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To answer this very difficult question, do you agree we all have a capacity to murder/ kill?
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Hmmm…I don’t know. I’ll have to think about that. My first instinct is to say no, but I’ll have to ponder that for a bit.
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Fair enough. Looking forward to your further thoughts on this issue
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“Bottom line, though is, I believe rape is about dominance and power.”
Bingo! All other considerations are superfluous.
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An offering that is bound to be controversial and emotional, on both sides. I’m not certain as to whether or not I can even understand the view of rape being natural. I am too socially conditioned to think of it as violence and barbaric. I do know that I’m going to have to re-read the op-ed original again, even though I dread that prospect.
I wish I wasn’t among the first to review this here. I’m needing some other thoughts to consider.
I admire your courage in presenting this here, my friend. It’s certain to be a very lively discussion. I’ll be back here again later this evening.
Much love and naked hugs! 🙂
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No problem. I hope we will be able to get some considered comments to this. It is worthy of discussion.
I wouldn’t want this happening to anyone. It is important we talk about it.
Big hugs my friend and love
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No, I don’t believe that people are monogamous, storks for instance are much more monogamous. It would help if people would stop to see other people as their possession (a mistake made by men as well women), and to accept that one’s partners can be intimate with others as long as full honesty is maintained.
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Me and you are in agreement here
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Noel, I read the article Belle linked, her post and all the comments. This is indeed a very complex topic and one I have studied quite extensively. I have experience a lot of heartache in my life, and did question if it was me. In my pursuit to find understanding through research, I learned a lot about ‘human nature’. This helped me to find peace of mind and forgiveness. I am not a member over there and really don’t want to share so personally as a newbie. I have been raped. I tend to agree with Greg Olson-Hyde’s post on the second page. I am not saying that a woman who wears a bathing suit is setting herself up for rape. But I do believe that when you go to parties or clubs — around alcohol and possible drugs that one is in the company of people who are more likely to function from their limbic system, not their pre-frontal cortex.
But, I will also say that when I was raped, the rapists were not under the influence and neither was I dressed provocatively. I was not flirting, either. In my case, I am certain is was about exerting control over me. Twice, my sister was given a date rape drug. The first time she passed out in the restaurant before she could get out the parking garage. The second time she wasn’t so lucky. Both times she was at a restaurant with friends downtown. My sister and I are confident, savvy women. The times I was raped, I had successful businesses. My sister has a successful business. There are some men who have issues with women being successful, and in control of their own lives “without a man”.
As far as humans go, studies show that we are both pair-bonding and novelty seekers. http://www.reuniting.info/science
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When drugs and/or alcohol are involved where both parties are intoxicated I find it difficult to label one a rapist and another a victim. I do not think that dressing provocatively invites a rape. That’s not asking for it. That whole ‘boys will be boys’ line is tired and old. While we may have impulses we are not slaves to them; men nor women.
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I agree, and I hope you understood my point as to why I said I was not flirting or dressed provocatively. Man people do stupid stuff when they are drunk. Any woman who has two brain cells knows that she is potentially putting herself in harms way if she’s around guys who are intoxicated. We live in a rape culture. The phrase may seem trite but it is true. Men who feel they have the propensity to be disorderly and use poor judgement when they are under the influence should not be in public — but alone — away from harming others. But we live in a culture that encourages this. Hell, I live in a state that won’t sell alcohol on Sunday, because — well, you know. However, you can go to a bar or restaurant and get plastered. See what I mean?
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I do. And while we do live in a rape culture, and I know perfectly well what you’re saying, which is why I don’t dress provocatively or go to night clubs, I also think it’s time for some pushback where that kind of thinking is concerned.
Example: A woman walking in the ‘wrong part of town’ wearing a mini-skirt is often times referred to as ‘asking to be raped’. If she were raped she’d be hard-pressed to find sympathy because she would be thought to have brought it on herself. It was her fault.
NO! I don’t care if she’s walking naked through the ‘wrong part of town’ or ANY part of town. Her body is HERS unless she says ‘yes’ and gives it away.
I agree that, as women, we have to be vigilant and protect ourselves, but that is precisely because we are, to a large degree, thought of as being property for the taking, not because it is right and proper.
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I couldn’t agree more. A woman has the right to dress the way she wants to. Our bodies are beautiful, both male and female. But I have never in my life had a desire to rape a man because he was walking around in shorts and without a shirt. Even if we were all walking around naked, that is NOT an invitation to be raped. That goes for children, women, and men.
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Maybe if people walked naked more than they do we would have a better society. I don’t know.
But the excuse that she was dressed in such and such a way is lame
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Indeed. But we really need to focus on changing the culture. As Ruth mentioned, this is really about the belief that women were/are put here for men — and it even says so in the ‘good’ book. Women (and children) have been devalued/dehumanized for thousands of years, so it should come as no surprise how prevalent this attitude still is.
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I agree totally. The focus has to be education geared towards changing perceptions some held for so long that look at women as property or as not being as fully human. These are the things that we must change, may be then some of these problems will be reduced.
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Yes, Noel, and here’s one courageous Palestinian women who’s trying to change the culture in her region of the world. I read this this this morning and was awed.
Reading such things makes me realize that it could be much worse where I live, although I think that where I live, the bible belt, many guys do think the way the men do in her culture. You can also see it bleed through on the Internet when guys exchange comments between each other regarding their devaluing views about women.
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I will read it some other time. Thanks for the link
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Sure thing, Noel, and I hope you have a fantastical time on holiday. You will be missed.
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How we dress shouldn’t be a justification for defilement.
I would like to know the prevalence of rape in cultures where people went barely clothed
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I can’t, no matter how hard I try understand why a man would violate a small baby? A child? What do they understand about power plays.
We live in a man eat dog society. We wear veneers but deep down some of us are worse than what we ordinarily call beasts, and no matter how bad I feel about this, I have to make a concession that they are as they are. That is natural to them. It is a hard concession to make.
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“I can’t, no matter how hard I try understand why a man would violate a small baby? A child?”
Yes, that’s why rape is not black and white issue. It’s very complex. I was stunned to read how common raping children was when I read about the history of child abuse. Incest was very common, and even more so throughout history. Many simply didn’t view it as rape because women and children were and still are property of men throughout the world. I found this interesting:
“There have been many initiatives to raise the age of consent. Gratian, a canon lawyer, stated that consent could not take place before 7 years of age. The English government eventually decided on age of 12 for women as their limitation.[8] Feminists in the nineteenth century began to focus on raising it to at least 16, but ultimately wanting to raise it to 18. At that time the age was about 12 in most countries.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform
And of course we see the raping of children as perfectly acceptable in Muslim culture today so long as these children are married to the pervs.
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I also meant to say that I’m sorry that happened to you and to your sister. Those are clear indications that what we know of as rape is definitely about power and control.
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Thank you, Ruth. Which is why this subject is not black and white. We developed a forebrain, because to function solely from our mid and hindbrain renders us slaves to impulses that are disadvantageous to our species. So if someone is in an intoxicated state, they pretty much are surrendering their forebrain capabilities. I am not all against drinking responsibly. I’m just saying that both parties know what could happen when their frontal lobes deactivate under the influence.
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I think I agree with you on both counts. But maybe it isn’t so black and white.
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This hurts to even think about.
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OH Victoria, I’m glad I stopped by our dear friend Noel’s blog. I had no idea that this happened to you, yet alone more than once. It really, really breaks my heart! And to know that you still continue to get up, grow and love just makes me appreciate all of your beautiful attributes even more! I am so sorry that people would force themselves upon you in such a violent and hateful way. When I read what you and Ruth have been through with horribly aggressive, and violent men, it just makes me sit in awe of the wonder I see in both of you! I am also quite appreciative of Noel for addressing this topic. (Yet, another great human being in blog world.)
I admit, Noel, I don’t know if I want to read this or not. I can’t imagine what it must be like for a man, woman or child to be treated so horribly.
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Charity, I am profoundly touched by your compassion and that you would take the time to comment. I hesitate to share such things on an open forum because I don’t want to draw sympathy. I didn’t tell my family for a long time. I needed to find resolve first. I don’t think one ever gets over these things, but I never dwell on it, nor to I torture myself with “what if’s” and “what did I do”. Not do I hate the predators.
I will say that when I was a Christian, I was tormented by my thoughts and became too self-reflective, which only made things worse. But as I mentioned, research set me free from intense sorrow. As the article mentioned from Belle’s post, gene and culture (environment) are intertwined. I don’t think that men are born rapists. We don’t have to be slaves to our impulses, and that gives me hope for humanity.
I love you, girlfriend. Thank you!
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Maybe reading it is good to see it from a different perspective.
Thanks for your kind words, visit and comments.
It hurts the mind to think about what these lovely women and countless others have gone through
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I am passing this onto a friend that works with social services. I will read it as well in a bit.
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Looking forward to your comments
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Noel, I need to mention something for clarification’s sake. When I wrote that any woman who has two brain cells knows that she is potentially putting herself in harms way if she’s around guys who are intoxicated, this was in no way to demean rape victims. I am trying to articulate the felling I had after reading Belle’s courageous post, and I felt protective of her and others who could be potential victims of rape in the future. I am concerned that it may have come across as insensitive. And while I have found resolve with my own circumstances, that does not mean that I won’t get triggers sometimes. So, my comments may seem curt.
I also want to mention that Belle has realized that this was/is not a safe environment for her to be in — to be around guys who are intoxicated, at least in our culture. It is very disconcerting, though, that very few women can really talk about this and get the necessary support they need. Belle is clearly traumatized, and her cry for help appears to have pretty much fallen upon deaf ears in the professional community. And for women who do report rape, it can be hell to pay.
Thank you for this post.
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I think anyone reading this comment will be able to understand what you mean.
You are most welcome and thanks for sharing.
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Not one of my favourite subjects at all so I’ll skip. 😉
Have a great weekend Mak. 😀
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Have a great weekend too my friend
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Thanks Mak. I will for sure. 😀
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Sounds like some junky science based on a purely male-hetero model that can be broken down by asking how it explains the rape of children, other makes, and animals by males (no biological need there); or why women rape other women, men, children, and animals?
However, a positive from this study is that it points out a need to study the act of rape more closely instead of putting all the focus on the victim. From a victim’s point of view rape will be about dominance and violence, but it may be very different from a rapist’s perspective. This study, and debate surrounding it, makes it clear that we need a lot more attention paid to all sexes and species of rapists; our traditional thinking models are becoming less and less applicable the more open we talk about rape.
I also think these scientists should get some points for having good intentions for wanting to study it as a way of preventing it.
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I agree it is not an easy question. The book I mentioned in the post is a good read on several aspects of mating.
And yes, it is difficult to explain child rape or rape of the same sex.
I also agree that more studies ought to be done to understand this question more.
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It’s a good discussion to keep having for sure. We are reaching a tipping point here in the USA; more people are demanding new and better solutions than,”don’t wear short skirts.”
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Don’t wear short skirts or she is dressed provocatively can’t sell anymore. We demand a better and a more sober approach to the problem.
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Finally. There’s also a movement here to teach men not to rape ether than teaching women how to avoid getting raped. Im not terribly pleased with it, but any step is better than none.
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As long as it is a step in the right direction, something better be done
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For sure. My university is in hot water for not responding to the increase in sexual assaults on campus
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I think cases of sexual assaults in our universities are very low, at least, at the moment.
Your university should be put to task why it can’t improve the security in campus
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It has been. People are very angry the city spends more time shuffling minors out of bars, and the university dug itself a hole when it said we don’t have a sexual assault problem, we have a policy problem. The city went nuts.
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Noel — this was in the news yesterday.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/05/arizona-pastor-women-in-yoga-pants-are-partially-responsible-for-rape/
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That’s insane, really insane
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Welcome to America.
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Are you sure you want to come visit me? 😉
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I can’t wait to come!
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You brave soul. 😀
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Makagutu,
I believe that the Inner movement that leads a man to rape a woman is a disorder in this behaviour… Through the years the arguments to try to explain the reasons behind it have changed and yet I still find that they may be linked with the idea of reaction to a female stimulii… I Wonder why this happens as ultimately anything would justify It…
Interesting article and comments above.
Best wishes to you, Aquileana 🙂
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I think it is a difficult question with no easy answers
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