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On the death of JC


Continuing with our story from where we left it here, we would like to investigate how the supposed Jesus died.

There have been many theories and the one I like the most is that JC was smuggled to India where he died in obscurity.

None of the gospel writers were there when he was taken to the tomb by Joe of Arithmathea [ why this dude has never been looked for I don’t know and he holds the key to the JC narrative] and whether he was alive or in a coma. There are no coroners’ reports to tell us the time of death and likely cause of death.

My good friend, TMI, brought to my attention the JW contention on the manner of death of the NT hero. They contend he died on a stake and not a cross among other contentions that they have with the true christians :D. Who has the true story of the death of our zombie Jesus? The JWs or the True Christians [ all puns intended]

And while we on it, how many people* are going to heaven?

* hint: the JWs have the answer.

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

125 thoughts on “On the death of JC”

  1. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    September 13, 2014 at 14:43

    Feeling feisty today, my friend. 😀

    “There have been many theories and the one I like the most is that JC was smuggled to India where he died in obscurity.”

    I was at a hair salon getting my hair trimmed. I was a regular and we (me and the owner) always got into discussions. We were discussing politics that time, GW Bush to be specific and it evolved to religion and Jesus. He told me the same thing and turned me on to a website dedicated to this theory. He’s from India. This was several years back. Can’t recall the website. I bet Jesus was a busy dude — he had a lot of demons to cast out. 😉

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  2. nannus says:
    September 13, 2014 at 15:27

    The JW version is a good example of how such stories ariese in religious communities. What really happened (if anything at all) is obscured behind stories and all kinds of psychological, political and religious/ideological motives contribute to the formation of the story.
    These made-up stories, however, tend to become more interesting than what really happened, because all kinds of interests and motives of different groups and people are going into them.
    Eg., there was a greece tradition that one guy who escaped from the Trojan war (Aeneas) would found a new city. According to the mythology, he was a son of the goddess Aphrodite. Some people in antiquity thought that that new city was Rome. Now the Romans had their own foundation story already, and the times did not match, so they inserted another city founded by Aeneas, and then let Aeneas be the ancestor of Romulus and Remus, who are involved in the foundation story of Rome. Finally, Julius Cesar claimed his ancestry to go back to Aeneas and thus to Aphrodite (or Venus). Now the Romans had some trouble because they considered the Greeks to be culturally superior to themselves. When the Roman empire defeated the greeks people referred to the old stories again: back then, the greeks had defeated the Trojans, now the Romans, descendants of the Trojans (according to that story) hat revenged their ancestors. One can see here how such stories are muddled with and then they are given political and ideological significance. I find such processes of rewriting myth and history for political purposes interesting in themselves.
    In the case of Jesus, the interesting question is to look at the motives of people like Paul etc. to twist the story this way or that way. What actually happened then becomes less relevant.

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  3. Joseph Wahome says:
    September 13, 2014 at 15:59

    We seem to have come up with the same theme today here, Noel. The death of Jesus. He he. Interesting coincidence.

    Now personally, I think that the whole Jesus story is bunk. I don’t think the guy ever existed. There is simply too little evidence for his existence – a surprising thing, for a person who supposedly used to break the laws of nature on a daily basis. Resurrecting dead people. Walking on water. Turning water into wine. Healing sick people magically. I think that it is very strange that, outside the bible, there is almost no other mention of this Jesus anywhere else, in secular texts.

    Yet, at the same time, there is so much evidence for noteworthy people who lived around the same time Jesus was supposed to be on earth. King Herod. Alexander the Great. And so on. There are coins, curved busts, some old drawings, and lots of literature that capture the existence of these other figures. Yet, if Jesus had existed, he easily would have eclipsed those other figures with his works. Isn’t this uniquely strange? And isn’t it, by extension, uniquely suspicious?

    I’d recommend that you go through the following essay, written by one of my old atheist friends. It is beautifully written, and addresses this issue of Jesus quite comprehensively:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/choking-on-the-camel-preface/

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    • makagutu says:
      September 13, 2014 at 21:30

      There are many of us who see this story as bunk. There are those who believe they have a historical fellow behind their story. I don’t.

      That is a good essay. Thanks for sharing.

      As you mentioned what did his death achieve? Folks are still killing each other left right and centre unless they don’t consider that sin in their rule book

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  4. shelldigger says:
    September 13, 2014 at 16:24

    Ahh, but if you merely claim it is true, and stick by your guns, it IS true!

    No evidence, or verifiable documentation required.

    Yeah, makes total sense to me… 🙂 Not!

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  5. john zande says:
    September 13, 2014 at 17:15

    I want a Christian to explain to me why nothing changed after JC died. The whole purpose of the Suicide by Centurion* was to forgive the original sin. Great! Good stuff. And so……

    *your term, and I absolutely love it.

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  6. aguywithoutboxers says:
    September 13, 2014 at 17:42

    There seems to be a parallel here between the death of the mythical deity and the death of the late US President Kennedy. The number of “conspiracy theories” abound. The differences are that we have historical proof that John Kennedy actually lived and died. Not so in the case of the other.

    I like the kidnapping to India version. Was he transported there via magic carpet? 😉 Personally, that’s more plausible than the theists tale.

    Have a great weekend, my Nairobi brother! Be safe and take care!

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  7. Ruth says:
    September 13, 2014 at 17:48

    Well, see, all you have to do is make a claim that no one can definitively refute. Then it’s evidence and makes your claim true.

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  8. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    September 13, 2014 at 17:51

    Have a good laugh. It’s the weekend.

    “A belief that Jesus survived the crucifixion and spent his remaining years in Kashmir has led to a run-down shrine in Srinagar making it firmly onto the must-visit-in India tourist trail.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8587838.stm

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  9. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says:
    September 13, 2014 at 18:04

    This site states that it presents evidence. 😀

    http://www.tombofjesus.com/index.php/en/

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  10. inspiredbythedivine1 says:
    September 13, 2014 at 18:30

    Those tomb of Jesus sites are awesome. Many give you the exact coordinates as to where in India the tomb is, in case you’re planning a vacation with the kiddies. Many show satellite pics of the tomb as well. I like this theory cause it conflicts entirely with the NT and pisses off christians. Anything that does that warms my heart. On a lighter note, I’ve been researching crucifixion, just cause, and it turns out, a lot, if not most victims of it, were tied or nailed to a simple pole with their arms extended over their heads. This brought about death via the inability of their lungs to take a breath after awhile. They kinda asphyxiated in a very unpleasant way. Also, there is practically no physical evidence left of crucifixion victims due to the fact bodies were often left on the crosses to be completely devoured by animals and/or tossed in rivers to just float away. Anyway, death by crucifixion, though a riotous ball of fun for its victims, was not carried out in one specific way all the time, in spite of what christians say.

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  11. myatheistlife says:
    September 13, 2014 at 19:10

    Wait, are you people telling me that India is the goto retirement spot for deities? Is the Ganges better than the Bali beaches? What? Something is wrong with this story. Itinerant Jew preacher retires to Hindu stronghold before sending angels to the desert (yet again) to inspire more hatred and bigotry?

    I know who JC is… that carpenter disguise doesn’t fool me. His real name is Loki

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  12. inspiredbythedivine1 says:
    September 13, 2014 at 22:59

    Here’s an interview I did with Lazarus some of you may have read, but it fits in well here: http://variouspontifications.com/2014/01/26/lazarus-the-worlds-first-zombie-talks/

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  13. mark says:
    September 14, 2014 at 00:28

    I found an interesting article the other day that questions whether Jesus died at all from crucifixion and proposes instead that he took some kind of narcotic potion that put him into a coma like sleep which wore off after 3 days. In some ways it is just as bizarre as the India theory but nevertheless it is interesting reading http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/500/jesus_slept.html

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  14. themodernidiot says:
    September 14, 2014 at 10:39

    😀

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  15. ABU says:
    July 21, 2017 at 16:54

    TombofJesus website has moved to http://www.arifkhan.co.uk/TOJ/
    Bottom line is u have to pray to Allah for his guidance, for him to give u a sign.
    I think the following will help, prime u, excuse the fast pace, my ideas come fast sometimes.
    See articles JESUS SLEPT – JESUS OF THE EAST, etc, on Forteantimes.com,
    ie Romeo and Juliet = Rome and Jesus ie if Shakespeare had the guts to not cut the story short for fear of execution let alone persecution –> ie the Copernicus and Galileo syndrome she is dead, but her body’s disappeared, no she’s a ghost, no she’s resurrected, and don’t u dare say she was resuscitated by the padre, and “everywhere that MARY went the LAMB was sure to go” –> Beauty sleeps to be awakened by Princely kiss, who is this ‘Prince of the believers’ ie the 2nd awakening, 7 dwarves ie the 7 hills on which Rome was built protect.
    I have a dream I dreamt with open eyes and it must be told I’ll ascribe it ‘Don Qixote’ or Shake Chilli or MulanAsRudin, for tellings sake only –>
    One day our Chilli Don is riding down his backward ways and he notices the SUN rise out of the East and set in the West, he sees this operation repeat a few days then he figures the Sun is going around the Earth u across the sky East to West, cause seeing is believing ie Dons don’t use brains. But the problem is the SUN promised the full MOON shall rise on the night of the 14th and thereupon to greet it with salutaions on behalf of the SUN and to swear allegiance to the Light of truth Shining again. But one fine night of the 14th the MOON full does rise out of the East which it really does going around the Earth u East to West, but our Chilli Don interprets all things Signs of God included literally, therefore he figures this is not the awaited foretold promised FULL MOON rising out of the East concluding it is an impostor SUNpretender only,,, cause how dare it shine is his eyes with SUNlight ie pretender thief stealing sunlight to usurp the throne of the SUN by pretense; and also don’t u see how the SUNpretender in his perfect pretense of SUNhood is going around the EArth East to West just like SUN [the literalist eyes of the Chilli Don who believes in only the mighty mula ways], surely he pretends too perfectly to be the SUN in imitating so perfectly even his motion in the Sky East to West. Presuming to know it all the ChillDonMula rejects the real MOON arrival on the 14th night for SUNpretender chosing darkness to wait some more, FUllmoon has 3 full nights, the ChilliDonMula remains in darkness the 2nd night as well not even in acknowledging the presence of the MOON he rejected the previous night, 3rd night comes to pass, the CHilliDonMula has 2 choices either to admit that this really was the promised 2nd coming of light ie FULLMOON, or he figures “these are just the superstitious stories of the bygone ages”…Cause we are now in the 15 day….calendar wise for those who can understand qed the copernicus – galileo syndrome.. For the ChilliDonMula the Earth is still flat cause he’s feet tell him so ie it will become round at doomsday, and there are no 2 jins he can’t live with out ie HydroJin and OxyJin, until they decide to drown him, for he cannot see them, even if they are made of fire and we enchain them in Iron and make them do our bidding ie in the combustion engine, train , car plane, rocket to the Moon, small wonder dajjal’s donkey wears the Moon on its forehead to boast of its ultimate ground breaking achievement.
    http://www.arifkhan.co.uk/TOJ/
    ie TOMBofJESUS
    ie JESUS “landed” in 1889 in India Qadian in the name of Mirza Ghulam AHMAD the 2nd MESSIAH-Budda2, Krishna2, etc
    SUN=MUHAMMAD
    MOON=AHMAD=2nd coming of Jesus, Budda, Krishna, etc.
    http://www.ALISLAM.org
    Hadith Tirmizi – “River Nile springs from Moon Mountains”, a learned man was told by Mulla to either believe this literally or be branded and unbeliver. The learned man looked to the sky and saw no water crashing upon on his head from Moon’s mountains, thereupon became a Christian. But one fine day he sat in a monastery reading book by a Christian priest wherein was stated that their lies on the border of Uganda a mountain called “Moon Mountain” whence the river nile really does flow, lo and behold this learned man again reverted to Islam exclaiming that a Christian’s learning had made him a Muslim again where as the ignorance of the Mulla had made him an unbeliever!
    I got the above hadith from MTA Liqa Ma Al Arab, told a friend, and I searched left and right for it criss crossing the world for Moon Mountain, then 2 weeks later caught a documentary on BBC called “Moon Mountain” and or where in was shown that Moon Mountain = Rowenzori (in Swahili) whence the River Nile really does flow.
    So now U know how to know.
    “Kill him, not leave him” or “Kill him not, leave him” – What it is 2 b or not 2 b that’s entirely up to your nature, what u need is some ALTiTUDE for a fresh Vantage point!
    .
    http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/500/jesus_slept.html
    Jesus Slept!
    Did Jesus dies in a narcotic trance?
    By Gloria Moss
    June 2001
    The idea that Jesus might not have died on the Cross, but was buried alive in some kind of narcotic trance, would have been a fatal heresy in the 12th century. But Gloria Moss has found some literary and herbal hints of this ‘secret’ among mediæval writers of classical romances.
    Mysteries turn up in the strangest places. Buried in a story by the 12th-century writer Chrétien de Troyes is the tale of a beautiful woman who decides to escape an arranged marriage and elope with a young, handsome knight. Her motives are understandable enough, but the way she sets about it is strange indeed. Instead of simply eloping – an act that would tarnish her reputation – she decides to feign death and then run off in secret with her lover. To simulate her own death, she takes a narcotic potion and, three days after burial in a new tomb, is resurrected.
    Parts of Chrétien’s story are strikingly familiar. There are elements not only of Romeo and Juliet – the potion, the tomb and the awakening – but also of the crucifixion story. Consider the parallels. The woman, like Jesus and Juliet, dies after taking a drink; she, like Jesus, is buried in a new tomb and restored to life three days later; even the heroine’s name, Fénice – the French for phœnix – serves as a reminder of Jesus, since the phœnix was used as a symbol of Christ and his resurrection in mediæval times. These and other allusions to the New Testament crucifixion story suggested that Chrétien was making a point. He was getting as near as he could to questioning a fundamental tenet of Christianity – Jesus’ resurrection.
    Both Chrétien and Shakespeare were sailing close to the wind. The 12th century was not a time when it was possible overtly to question Christian orthodoxy, since state and church were closely linked. However, Chrétien was writing for the court of Champagne, a court with links to the Templars and notable for producing translations of the Bible; he might have calculated that with such backing, it was safe enough to criticise Christianity through the medium of a story. He may have been right, but with the few details we have of his life, nothing is certain. All that we know is that his last work, Perceval – the earliest version of the Grail story – was never completed. Gerbert de Montreuil, one of the writers who continued it, claimed that death prevented Chrétien from completing his work. Was this a natural end, or could he have been pushed? It seemed to me that an investigation was called for.
    Many questions suggest themselves. If Chrétien had reason to believe, for example, that Jesus took a narcotic potion on the cross, what could it have been? And are there any other traces in his work of a belief that Jesus survived the crucifixion?
    Various people have suggested in the past that Jesus may have survived the crucifixion, citing as proof the fact that blood flowed from the lance wound after he was declared dead. (It is medical opinion that blood cannot flow from a corpse.) Two of the more recent books – The Jesus Conspiracy and The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail – suggest that he owed his survival to a potion containing opium and vinegar. The inclusion of vinegar should come as no surprise, since all the Gospel accounts, except Luke’s, refer to the fact that Jesus’ death followed his being offered a sponge soaked with vinegar.
    The idea that the sponge contained opium might appear superficially attractive – even the first-century master of herbalism, Dioscorides (above, c. AD 60–75), refers to the sleep-inducing qualities of opium – but there are several arguments against it. First, the largest component in the opium, morphine, produces rapid breathing, a very different effect from the “giving up of the breath” reported of Jesus. Then, morphine is absorbed only slowly by the body, arguing against the sudden reaction reported after Jesus took the vinegar. Last but not least is the fact that vinegar, according to Dioscorides, counteracts every poison “and in particular opium.” This would not be disputed today, since the effect of combining acetic acid (vinegar) with morphine sulphate (the narcotic component of opium) is to produce a substance – morphine acetate – which is less effective as a narcotic than the original morphine sulphate.
    The idea that a vinegar-based potion contained opium can therefore be scotched. Ninth- and 12th-century sources point to another possibility. According to the Antidotarium of Nicolai of Salerno, a soporific sponge could be applied to patients’ nostrils to create a state of anæsthesia. He suggests that one of the substances in the sponge was mandrake.
    According to Dioscorides, touching or eating the apple-like fruit of the plant could bring on tiredness, and the root and bark were even more potent. Cooked in vinegar, the root could leave a person unconscious for up to three or four hours, leading Dioscorides to recommend its use for “people about to be cut or cauterised (who) wish to become insensible to the pain.” The bark could produce a “dead sleep”, and a whiff of it was enough to produce a death-like stupor.
    In the 1890s, a doctor, Benjamin Ward Richardson, carried out experiments with mandrake. He administered a mixture of alcohol and mandrake root to pigeons and rabbits, and found that not only did it act as a “general anæsthetic of the most potent quality,” but the “animals’ hearts continued to beat after their respiration had ceased.” Interestingly, New Testament accounts describe Jesus as having “given up the breath.” We now know that mandrake contains a mydriatic alkaloid, mandragorine (C17 H27 O3 N), which interferes with the transmission of nerve impulses across pathways. You only need to block a few pathways to produce a devastating effect and stop all sensation or control of movement.
    There are references to mandrake in the Old Testament, showing that it grew in biblical lands (Genesis 30:14; Song of Songs 7:11–13). There also appear to be references to mandrake in the work of the first-century historian Josephus. Josephus refers to a plant ba’ar (a word meaning to burn) as having characteristics which are associated only with mandrake. He also says that it shines brightly at night – a feature of mandrake described elsewhere. Further, the root of mandrake came to be valued as a talisman, believed to confer on people their every wish.
    So, if Chrétien de Troyes imagined that Jesus had taken a narcotic, there is a fair chance that he might have thought the substance in question to be mandrake. Is there any more tangible evidence that he had this in mind? His last, unfinished work, Perceval, provides a clue.
    Perceval was written some time before 1188 and describes an extraordinary encounter between its hero, Perceval, and an object referred to as the Grail. He first glimpses this in a procession in which a squire grasps a lance dripping with blood. The description of the Grail does not, on the face of it, give much away about its true nature. According to Chrétien, it shines so brightly that it eclipses the stars and maintains the life of a man (the Fisher King’s father) who had sustained a serious wound in years past. Perceval’s big mistake, the story tells us, was not to ask why the lance bled. Had he done so, we are told, the man’s suffering would have come to an end.
    The emphasis on the bleeding lance directs one back to the crucifixion (see The Holy Spear, FT140:66). An escape of blood is not generally consistent with death, a fact which was acknowledged by the church father Origen in the second century AD. The existence of a bleeding lance would remind doubting minds of these facts, and further poignancy would be created by the knowledge that Perceval was reluctant to ask why the lance bled. The answer was unorthodox.
    That is not all. The descriptions of the Grail also lead back to the crucifixion since – and this has not been remarked on before – descriptions of it are reminiscent of mandrake. In fact, the Grail was imputed with all the characteristics of mandrake. It supplied people with whatever they wanted (the mandrake’s talismanic qualities) and it shone brightly at night (as did the mandrake). Moreover, its third attribute – of forestalling death – was linked to mandrake’s anæsthetic qualities insofar as the apparent death induced by mandrake is followed by a resurrection, showing, by inference, that mandrake prevents lasting death.
    The realisation that the Grail stands for mandrake is an indication that the story is a cipher for Chrétien’s heretical beliefs about the crucifixion. This shows that Chrétien’s purpose may have been far from innocent, and that he may have intended an attack on Christian orthodoxy. Perhaps, then, the death that prevented his completion of Perceval was no accident. This would not be surprising; his patron for Perceval, the Count of Flanders (the man credited with giving Chrétien the book on which the story is based) was related to a founder member of the Templars, and his other patron, the Countess of Champagne, was related by marriage to another founder member. In another hundred years the Templars would be the target of an Inquisition which accused them of blasphemy and heresy, and denying and spitting on the cross.
    Quite clearly, Templar beliefs did not coincide with Christian orthodoxy. Some say that the Templars looked for and discovered secret scrolls under the Temple in Jerusalem, and it is possible that the Templars communicated their findings to the court of Champagne, and thence to Chrétien. Thereafter, these heterodox ideas survived intact in the pages of other, apparently innocent, literary texts, including a story in Boccaccio’s Decameron, Romeo and Juliet, and Snow White, and are worthy of some consideration.
    Boccaccio’s story tells of an abbot who uses an anæsthetic potion to send a husband, his rival in love, to purgatory (he is given enough powder to put him to sleep for three days). The abbot keeps him in a darkened cell for several months, and then only allows him to be ‘resurrected’ as the man’s wife falls pregnant by the abbot. The husband is convinced that he has “risen from the dead” and is universally believed.
    Then there is Romeo and Juliet, in which another man of the church, a friar, provides a narcotic potion. All three elements of the crucifixion story are here – death after taking liquid, burial in a tomb, and resurrection three days later. One of Shakespeare’s sources – Da Porto’s tale of Romeo e Giulietta (1530) – even appears to offer an ironic allusion to Jesus’ “I thirst” in the fact that Giulietta feigns thirst as she prepares to take the potion.
    Finally, we have Giovanni Battista’s 17th-century story of Snow White. The apparently innocent story of a young girl who eats an apple and enters a deep sleep is yet another allusion to mandrake, for its fruit – a whiff of which could knock you out – was often likened to apples.
    The mystery has come full circle. Chrétien in the 12th century dared to question orthodox beliefs. He may have sacrificed his life as a consequence.
    Jesus was granted ELAVATION from a heinous end on the cross, but if u want to read it he was given an ELAVATOR straight UP, then soot yourself but up above which country, up is relative to EARTH. Either read it God LIFTED him beyond their ill intentions or gave him LIFTOFF, UP to you. Wait a minute did I just say that, where UP are you. Does this RAISE any fresh perspectives. So you need more altitude for a better vantage point.

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    • makagutu says:
      July 23, 2017 at 13:26

      I don’t think I have time or patience to read this.

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      • ABU says:
        July 28, 2017 at 17:32

        Mary had a little Lamb, little Lamb, and every where that Mary went the Lamb was sure to go.

        If the Lamb has risen up, up and beyond, then does that mean that Lamb and Mary have risen and met at the same altitude. Let alone to wait for a 2nd coming Jesus landing, shall we also await a Mary landing 2. When John the Bapits was pointed out by Jesus 1 as 2nd landing of ELijah.

        2nd Jesus landing happened 1889 in India Qadian in person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, ie before WWI, WWII, some chose to wait beyond WWIII game over time?

        Jesus was seen in Kashmir India and mentioned in historic records of Hindu rulers – as regards hisotoricity as you called it 3 years ago, find it at http://www.arifkhan.co.uk/TOJ/
        http://www.ALiSLAM.org

        Perhaps you’ve outgrown the randomness of 3 years ago.

        bye.

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