And yes you read that correctly. Today morning I read this post by Nan and now we have the same dude, in the break between replacing the shoes in his mouth, telling us atheism is disproved by evil. He tells us
the existence of evil turns out to be a bigger problem for atheists to explain than for theists. The kind of evil Dawkins and the rest of the civilized world abhor doesn’t disprove God—it disproves atheism.
In an earlier post where I tackled this issue, I wrote and I think it is true that atheism being a lack of belief in deities has no obligation to account for anything. Atheists can delve into such topics not because of their atheism, but because they are human and these and many others are human questions. He continues to tell us
While it’s commonly thought that only theists have to explain the existence of evil, the truth is every worldview does. Eastern pantheistic religions try to get around the problem by denying that evil even exists. Evil is an illusion, they say (and according to them, so are you!).
It is not true that every worldview has to explain the problem of evil. This problem, if we can call it so, is a problem for a person who claims to believe in a personal god, who is all powerful and all loving. A believer in an indifferent god who for all we care could have created the world by mistake and said fuck it, let it be has no need to explain away evil. The person who insists that others have this problem is either daft or doesn’t understand what the problem of evil is. Any normal person will be outraged by the inhumane acts we do to each other in the name of gods. Turek thinks that by having issue with this, atheists are trying to have their cake and eat it. He says this because we have said the universe as far as we can tell is indifferent to our frail feelings. The earth continues to rotate, the sun to give light regardless of how many of our brothers we kill. It never stops for a moment of silence even when it kills hundred of thousands in a tsunami. But to each of us, there are things that are inimical to our well being and some have labeled them evil, some bad things. I didn’t do philosophy for long, you see I wasn’t trying to become a philosopher but I think this
On the other hand, if evil actually does exist, then atheists have an even bigger problem. The existence of evil actually establishes the existence of God.
is a bad argument or conclusion. How would one come from the existence of one to the other? How do you make this jump? He tells us Augustine puzzled over the following question
- God created all things.
- Evil is a thing.
- Therefore, God created evil.
Is premise 1 valid? No. I also never said English is my strength, I have tried to make sense of this next argument and I can’t make head or tails of what Turek is saying. He writes
Evil is like rust in a car: If you take all of the rust out of a car, you have a better car; if you take the car out of the rust, you have nothing. Or you could say that evil is like a cut in your finger: If you take the cut out of your finger, you have a better finger; if you take the finger out of your cut, you have nothing. In other words, evil only makes sense against the backdrop of good. That’s why we often describe evil as negations of good things. We say someone is immoral, unjust, unfair, dishonest, etc. We could put it this way: The shadows prove the sunshine. There can be sunshine without shadows, but there can’t be shadows without sunshine. In other words, there can be good without evil, but there can’t be evil without good.
Though I know I have seen a good shadows with no sunshine. Good and bad are man’s way of seeing the world. The lion kills the gazelle for food, thereby denying it a chance to live. Is this evil? No. It’s just how the world works. Man has divided the world between good and evil with the result that the world is seen as evil. The world just is. Turek tells us
C. S. Lewis was once an atheist who thought evil disproved God. He later realized he was stealing from God in order to argue against Him. He wrote, “[As an atheist] my argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”
but here, it is evident C.S Lewis argument was faulty. It was unsound. If he was an atheist and blamed god for shit, then his head should be checked. He was probably confused. The world isn’t unjust. It has no feelings. To assign it such is to anthropomorphize. And for all the Muslims killing in their god’s name, Turek has this to say
Just who is this God? Allah isn’t a candidate because according to Islamic doctrine Allah is arbitrary, and thus can’t be the unchanging standard of good. The true God is the God of the Bible who is revealed as the unchanging ground of all goodness.
Where is paarsurrey when you need him? Maybe he could clear this up with Turek and give us an answer we could all use whenever we have to talk about god. This post is already long enough. Whatever is Turek’s profession, he need to spend more time thinking. If this is his best attempt, he could try his hand elsewhere, maybe as a fisherman where the only talent would be to lay nets.
Considering Turek’s comments about God and evil, I have my doubts that he would even know what a net is, let alone lay it to catch fish.
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If you put it that way, I don’t know what other job the poor fellow can do
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“Good and bad are man’s way of seeing the world.” This I can not agree with more, my friend. (Great post, too, BTW) Did good and evil exist when dinosaurs roamed the Earth? Was it evil when a typhoon wiped out dozens of T-Rex on an island 200 million years ago? Was it evil when a massive planetoid struck the primordial Earth and helped formed the moon? Surely, it must have been a spectacularly violent occurrence. Was it evil when that huge asteroid killed the dinosaurs? It sure wasn’t what they would have wanted. WE make things evil and good. Those concepts do not exist without us. WE project them onto things, and quite subjectively, too, I must say. For what Stalin thought of as a good way to govern people is not what I think of as a good way to govern people. WE bring these ideas to life. Without humans, there is no good or bad, and, more importantly, without humans, there is no god to condemn or love us. To say atheism creates evil is like saying the non-belief in Zeus creates rain. Theists like the one you quote here are assholes. Idiotic, ignorant, A number one, assholes. 🙂 $Amen$
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You know I agree with you to a T. Ignorant assholes all the way.
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$Amen$
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Amen
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🙂
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Agreed. “Good” and “Evil” are simply categories, defined by human beings. That doesn’t make this categories somehow absolute, same as for “beauitful” and “ugly”. It’s a way of humans to look at the world. And everyone agrees on that. Even theists agree, the just want to add, that humans do that, BECAUSE there is a higher standard. But as noone has ever shown what this higher standard actually entails (and never will), we can dismiss that unproven point.
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Agreed
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Agreed. OK, that’s 3 ayes and no nays. The ayes have it!
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“WE make things evil and good.”
That sums it up perfectly.
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Maybe it is the only way we can make sense of the world
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The world would make better sense to me without religion. Then all we’d have to worry about would actually be the world and not made up stupid shit about some bloody invisible guy. $Amen$
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In deed, when we are not worrying about where to go when we die, we would concentrate more on doing things here, where they matter the most
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$Amen$
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There is an argument and i think it is valid, that the more irreligious the world gets the more peaceful it gets. The argument here is that the irreligious are more tolerant of divergent views among things.
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Sorry, that makes it 4 ayes and no nays. The ayes still have it! $Amen$
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The ayes still have it
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Couldn’t have written it as well. I agree.
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Thank you kindly, my friend
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I would it simple: evil are things we do not like. We call a human being who kills another human being evil, but do we call a wolf evil because he kills a deer?
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and things we don’t like include being blind. We would wish all blind people see. To this extent blindness is an evil.
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Some people do. It is purely a very human very subjective thing. Evil and good are entirely dependent on he is making the judgement. Was there evil and good before mankind became sentient? Will there be evil and good once we are gone? There will be no one here to make those judgements. Thus, things will go on exactly as before only without us to label them.
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That is what I think too
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$Amen$ Was there good and evil before us? Will there be good and evil when there is no us to define them? I say no.
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In his book, The world as will and representation, Schopenhauer says the world is our idea. When I am the world is, when am not, it ceases to exist for me. Without me, there is neither good nor bad. Things just are
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I agree with him.
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Maybe the dinosaurs had a concept of evil, but we’ll never know.
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we will never know. Maybe the dinos thought it was evil as they died one by one.
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If they did, it died with them. Same way our concepts of good and evil will die with us.
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True. Mice might have one too, but unless they become human and tell us so, we can only see good and evil as projections, human projections, of what those things are. Our good and evil ideas begin and end with us.
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I read something recently, well not recently recently, you get my drift.. that if triangles had a god, it would have three sides. We have projected our ideas into the world and think that is how the world is
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That’s all we can do. We’re limited by who and what we are. When I hear scientists talk about other dimensions and time being relative, it fucks my head but good. I continually wonder, how do they even begin to imagine such things being they are so beyond our perceptions of daily life. Then, they go on to devise experiments to show they are indeed real. Wild. I love science!
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Weeeeesh! Did I read that last bit right? The guy doesn’t even understand the Muslim worships the same god as he does!
Sometimes I think these apologists put on the “dumb.”
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But therein lies the rub, John. The Muslim does not worship Jesus as god as the christian does. So, even though both worship, supposedly, the OT god, Yahweh/Allah, only the Muslim is truly monotheistic because Jesus, to them, is only a prophet and very much NOT god. Islam and christianity are not at all the same, expect in the fact that both are equally full of shit.
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PUBAH!
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Dubah! Kaboobah! OK, now I’ve turned my dog into a newt. How do I turn her back?
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Islam and Christianity all full of shit.
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Bullshit to be exact.
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A lot of bullshit
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You read it right. That is why I proposed he changes jobs to a fisherman but Nan thinks he wouldn’t even know what a net is
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Hahaha! There is no cure for this kind of stupidity. Well, there is: natural attrition. I wish people had to pass a test before they could be cleared to breed. Our species has no respect for itself.
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We allow even the worst of us to breed when we curl animals that we keep to have the best. We are strange beings
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Hahahaha! That would take care of the population explosion for one.
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Precisely! And a few more problems, like neglected and dumb kids. (Dumb, because they haven’t been stimulated)
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A great post as always dear Makagutu!
I truly agree with you when you state that the following argument is not strong at all:
If evil actually does exist, then atheists have an even bigger problem. The existence of evil actually establishes the existence of God.
Mainly because it would be destroy by the following argument
God created all things.
Evil is a thing.
Therefore, God created evil.
Congrats on another thought provoking post!~ All the best to you. Aquileana 😀
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Thanks Aquileana. The bybill in some place says god created evil.
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[…] There is a mountain of literature on evil and I don’t think Turek will have anything substantive to say given the video we linked in an earlier post. […]
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