there are no good atheists


Sorry atheists.

This post is a response to there are no good atheists by pastor Rick Henderson.

First remember the pastor has the deck stacked against you. You can’t win against the house, in this case that’s him, but that is fine with me. It is the kind of card game I enjoy as long as I am not putting any money in it, let’s play.

He says the atheists who insist theirs is just a disbelief in deities are withholding information. He writes that at heart, each atheists holds to the following

1. The universe is purely material. It is strictly natural, and there is no such thing as the supernatural (e.g., gods or spiritual forces). It is safe to say we have no evidence for the supernatural and no way of detecting them

2. The universe is scientific. It is observable, knowable and governed strictly by the laws of physics.  Here is a mistake, the universe isn’t governed but we see the laws of nature operate strictly in the universe. To say the universe is governed would require us to be outside of it and I know no one who has achieved that feat.

3. The universe is impersonal. It does not a have consciousness or a will, nor is it guided by a consciousness or a will. We are again faced with a problem. If the universe by definition includes all that is in it, it contains both conscious and non-conscious organisms. 

I could possibly leave off here and tell the pastor he has missed his aim by a million miles but today being Sunday and is my be nice to theists day, I will answer his other challenges.

I think he commits a fallacy of equivocation in his next paragraph when he writes

Anything and everything that happens in such a universe is meaningless

and by leaving it open-ended, it can interpreted any way. It should be noted that humans, who are part of the universe give things meaning. A stone on the other hand being without consciousness is incapable of any such deductions.

So this next statement

A young girl is rescued from sexual slavery. A dog barks. A man is killed for not espousing the national religion. These are all actions that can be known and explained but never given any meaning or value.

is no longer about the universe but people and as such is untrue. To us, it matters that a man is killed for believing in a different god or that a girl is freed from slavery. It has meaning, it has value.

From the foregoing, it is clear that the dilemma the pastor raises is a false one. It is non-existent.

The pastor then goes to the deep end of the rails where all of them eventually end. He writes

His only reasonable conclusion is to reject objective meaning and morality. Thus, calling him “good” in the moral sense is nonsensical.

and for the umpteenth time we must ask,  is talk of morality only possible when we accept objective morality? Is talk of meaning only possible when we acknowledge objective meaning? Is something only sweet when we have objective sweetness? Is sex only good when we have objective sex? And how would that sex be, that is, objective sex?

As they say, even a broken watch is correct twice a day, so it is possible that even a wrong person sometimes by accident gets something right. He writes,

At best, morality is the mass delusion shared by humanity, protecting us from the cold sting of despair.

and I agree with this.

I don’t know about you, but I think he is being economical with facts when he writes

But I’ve never met an atheist who’s managed to live this way. All the atheists I’ve known personally and from afar live as if there is objective meaning and morality

And am sure he hasn’t met me. I gave up the search for meaning. Life is the all. Anyone looking for meaning has not learnt what being alive really is. All the human endeavours are the source of meaning, nothing beyond the ordinary. Kissing your baby in the morning, working at your station, writing all these we do because they have meaning for us. Meaning isn’t hidden under a stone that we are trying to fetch.

I believe morality[ whatever it might mean for you] evolved out of a sense of reciprocity for people/ animals living in community. A person living alone in isolation has no use of morals. He has no obligations to anyone.

I get disappointed all the time I read posts by Christian apologists regardless of their education. William Craig disappoints me, the arm-chair apologist, not you divine1, disappoints me even worse but pastors simply annoy me. How can a class of people be so silly? How can a whole class of people be so unreasonable? Worse how can a whole class that feels they have to apologise for their faith get things so wrong? Can’t we get a better challenge?

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About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

92 thoughts on “there are no good atheists

  1. You are being very kind to this theist, Mak. Happy Sunday. 🙂

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  2. I am an arm chair apologist. Being a heavy fellow I often apologize to the arm chair I sit in for stressing it with my weight. Your answers here are spot on, Mak. And, again, I must ask this christian apologist, pastor fellow, how do you know which invisible deity or deities are governing your fantasies of objective right and wrong? Your Babble? The Muslims have a Babble that has objective statements in it saying your Babble is evil and very wrong. Who’s right, and why? The meaning of life is what we give it. It is important to me that I have life because I like it. That’s it. I don’t know what’s outside the universe. How could I? I do know that you, Mr Pastor apologist, have no fuckin’ clue either. I also know, Mr. Pastor apologist, that I objectively find people like you tiresome shit-heals that waste air by breathing it. You, sir, are an ass, Mr. Pastor apologist. Now, please, stay away from kids. You’re dangerous. And they deserve to be kept safe from the likes of you.

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  3. Of course there are no good atheists. We are all evil. And I am one:

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  4. nannus says:

    Its a strawman argument. He is constructing something that atheists allegedly believe and then attacking that. Maybe he does it out of misunderstanding atheists. So I don’t know it this is malignance or stupidity.

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    • It’s none. It is conditioned thinking. It is something only deconverted understand. His very beliefs force him to have no other options. ANY compromise would directly jeopardise his “salvation” and in his eyes make him a tool of the “devil”.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Sadly, Nannus, he attacks atheists because they are the most dangerous people in the world to people like him who make their living from convincing people that there is this god-thing and it needs their money in order to know that the people are good and worship it. Atheists point out that this emperor has no clothes and will thusly get no money! He would even have to go out and get a real job! Now mind you, I’m the token theist who shows up now and then, but my gods don’t need your money and don’t want it, and expect me to have a real job. Rats, I would get into the wrong end of the racket! So I don’t care if you believe there are gods or not, it doesn’t change anything for me, and you’all probably wouldn’t be such an intelligent and interesting bunch if you did believe in gods. At least that’s my observation of those that do.

      Who knows, if this preacher person is really good at his job, maybe one day he can tell his followers that he needs a fancy private jet and needs them to pay for it. Now there’s a devout believer!

      Liked by 2 people

      • makagutu says:

        Sometimes I think being a preacher is really good business. You can ask your congregation to fund all your fancies.

        Living off other people I think is an easier job to do as long as you tell them they are going to heaven

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      • nannus says:

        It is interesting and telling that this god is constructed after the model of (despotic, all poerful) ruler. The structure of totally uncontrolled power, of despotism, as such a rather evil phenomenon in my opinion, is projected unto god, and this gods prophets and preacher as the vassals of the despot are constructing little power systems. Fear (from his lordship’s torture cellar) is used to keep people inside, breeding a breed of authoritarian personalities. Centuries after the middle ages have finished and society has moved on to different forms of organizing itself, this religion still perpetuates the model of the old system.

        Liked by 1 person

        • makagutu says:

          gods are modeled after our aspirations, fears, loves, and so on. the inventors of this god were the least innovative of all god makers. Came up with a single god who attributes can’t be reconciled

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    • makagutu says:

      It is easy to attack strawmen any day. You always win

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      • nannus says:

        Yes, but you cannot convince people who are living in a closed system of madness like this. However, you can expose it to others (like you are doing here).

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  5. aguywithoutboxers says:

    O Sanctified One, I’ve often suspected you had a soft-spot in your heart for believers on Sundays and now you openly and readily admit as much! LOL! Good refutation! You are indeed a sly one! Much love and many friendly, naked hugs! Thank you for sending the warmer temperatures my way! 😉

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  6. Mak? did you send this heat wave? gosh, would you take it back please? It’s not even Spring yet here in the Northern Hemisphere and it was over 90deg. Fahrenheit today.

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  7. Sonel says:

    Oh wow! Atheists are so cool! Now I know where to find all the answers I’ve always been looking for. Seems you and Ark have been holding out on me Mak. You’ve been ‘withholding information!’ Shame on both of you! 😛

    I have evidence for the supernatural. Sam and Dean are proof of that! 😆

    I don’t feel like being kind to jerks like this. You are a way better person than I am Mak. 😀

    This man was clearly very windy and he inhaled some of it. How the hell can he believe this crap that he writes? It just goes to show how religion messes with people’s minds Mak and how dare he say that Atheists are not good people? I know more non-believers than believers and I can tell you for a fact that the non-believers are more caring and loving that some of the so-called theists. Some theists are just out there to judge. When you don’t believe in anything, except what’s in front of you, you realise that the best way of living is to live in the moment.

    Anyways, who cares what he thinks? People like him are the main reason why I left the church and religion and I guess I should thank them. They did me a huge favour!

    He sure hasn’t met you Mak and others like you. Great folks with lots of morality, love and intelligence. Who cares about their ‘meaning of life’? At least we know we don’t have to go and search for it because we already found it.

    His principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior sucks! It’s so irritating when they think they’re ‘God’ or whatever they like to call their deity. Now you see why I don’t comment on most of these posts. Fart-smelling assholes like this infuriates me Mak. He doesn’t have the right to say that Atheists are not good people and I’m not even an Atheist. I just don’t believe in any of their crap!

    Let’s not start judging and call out some of the ‘pastors’ who molested little boys and girls, or who visited brothels, or who killed their wives and children in the name of their faith. I wonder where were their morality or ‘goodness’?

    Liked by 1 person

    • makagutu says:

      I promise this is the last time we are holding onto any information especially given we have been found out.

      One wonders what the hell these theists smoke. I am for one tired of reading their silly statement that we steal from Christianity to live our lives.

      I am slowly coming to the conclusion that most apologists are just windbags. They yap just to replace the shoes in their mouths

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sonel says:

        Good for you Mak. I’ll hold you to that promise. 😆

        I’m not even going to wonder anymore Mak. Let them believe what they want and we just won’t believe them. 😀

        That is a silly statement but what can you expect from no-brainers like them anyways? You said it! Windbags who are in it just for the money. At least we don’t think up excuses when we make a mistake. They blame it all on the devil or says ‘god spoke to them.’ Bleh!

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        • makagutu says:

          the devil gets blamed for everything bad and their all powerful god gets credit for all the good things when for a thinking person who must believe in a god, the opposite would make more sense unless they also believe in the struggle for supremacy, the devil always wins against their god

          Liked by 1 person

  8. emmylgant says:

    I love the way you swat at their dumb nonsense like they are pesky gnats.
    Post and comments are just too much fun! And that, I’m pretty sure, is a totally objectively stated opinion. 🙂

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  9. RonRon says:

    What are these “objective” moral standards? And by what metric did we make that determination?

    Enquiring minds want to know.

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    • makagutu says:

      I have been hoping the good pastor, and here I am using good loosely, would honour us with some answers

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      • RonRon says:

        I foresee a long wait, but get the impression that lying for Jesus isn’t on his list of “objective” moral prohibitions.

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        • makagutu says:

          Lying for Jesus is objectively moral. Even that guy called Paul had no problem with dissimulation for Jesus. The end justifies the means sort of

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          • ColorStorm says:

            Quite a charge you make there mak, that Paul, ahem, formerly Saul of Tarsus, was a liar.

            Care to present your proof, and not innuendoes, or opinions, but verifiable proof that this man of God was a liar for Christ.

            Be careful how you answer, for every person who made this claim, came up well short with zero facts because of an arrogant bias.

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          • makagutu says:

            why warn me to be careful?
            As one who has no reason to believe there is a god nor Jesus was a man who walked the earth, any claims that one has met him or spoken with him is a fabrication. I see no difference between him and Crefflo Dollar who thinks Jesus wants him to buy a Gulfstream jet to peddle lies around the world.
            In his arguments with the Athenians he, he claims that there is proof of resurrection for everyone which as far as I can tell is a fabrication.

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          • ColorStorm says:

            Quite interesting mac that you would accuse a man with a resume that surpasses just about everybody’s on earth, and question his fidelity to his own message, which certainly was not his idea.

            In other words, your character is greater than Paul’s. Nice work.

            As far as proof? Uh yea, just open your eyes, look at a tree, look at the seasons, and ahem, listen to your conscience that speaks loud and clear.

            Then there is always the epistles of this ‘liar.’

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          • makagutu says:

            CS I think you have no competition in having stupid ideas and writing them in public. How da fuck would you or anyone know the resume of Paul? Unless you wrote this in jest. Every pastor doesn’t question his fidelity to the lies he peddles, it doesn’t make the particular lie true.
            Oh yes, my character is greater than his.
            A liar can write epistles. How does that become proof of god.

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          • ColorStorm says:

            ‘Oh, yes, my character is greater than his.’

            Er, uh, ah, ah, er, ahem, you seem to have hung the noose around your own neck, for you see, YOUR epistles, that is, what YOU have written on your blog, and especially your commenting, have sort of disqualified you from ANY possibility of that being true, and any body with an ounce of common sense would agree.

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          • makagutu says:

            talking of people with common sense, you don’t have any so you wouldn’t be able to make a judgement on that

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          • RonRon says:

            Yep! Paul even boasted about his hucksterism:

            “I act like a Jew to the Jews, so I can recruit Jews. I act like I’m under the Law to those under the Law, so I can recruit those who are under the Law (though I myself am not under the Law). I act like I’m outside the Law to those who are outside the Law, so I can recruit those outside the Law (though I’m not outside the law of God but rather under the law of Christ). I act weak to the weak, so I can recruit the weak. I have become all things to all people, so I could save some by all possible means. All the things I do are for the sake of the gospel, so I can be a partner with it.”

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          • makagutu says:

            I know I can count on you to help

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  10. Arkenaten says:

    He is beneath contempt. For some there appears no hope.
    A definite Dickhead of the Week award.

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  11. ColorStorm says:

    ron
    mak

    There is a danger in handling sharp objects, apparently, you have cut yourself trying to manufacture a person to your liking. Both of you have embarrassed yourselves; perhaps a few more of your kin would like to try to paint Paul as a liar, for you have failed miserably.

    Now read to your own shame:

    ‘A necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

    For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

    What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

    For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

    And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

    To them that are without law, as without law, (BEING NOT WITHOUT LAW TO GOD, BUT UNDER THE LAW TO CHRIST,) that I might gain them that are without law.

    To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

    And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

    Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

    And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

    I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

    But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.’

    Did this quiet your mouths? It should.

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    • makagutu says:

      In my village, all markets have a mad man. In this blog, at the time being, you are the blog idiot. Am beginning to doubt if you have the intelligence greater than that of boiled beans.
      For starters, I have no belief in deities, the bible is a book written by men mostly for men.
      By quoting a passage of Paul, the same guy whose credibility is in question is not any different from quoting Harry Potter as evidence of the magic power of Harry Potter.
      If it is christianity making you so obtuse, quit and try another religion.
      You are free to continue to wallow in your ignorance unabated and even to comment here, but be assured that I have little to zero tolerance for stupid

      Like

    • Ron says:

      The text has Paul boasting how he changes character to gain converts.

      What’s your point?

      Like

  12. ColorStorm says:

    He did not change his CHARACTER. A man could be a judge, fireman, coach, husband, brother, uncle, without changing his CHARACTER.

    Common sense 101

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  13. Real real me says:

    Well said. I agree so much! In my life some atheists are amongst the best people I’ve meet…
    I like how you explained about searching for the sense/purpose of live! It’s just living… doing what we want and what we feel… being real! 😉 There are some nice examples you have given…

    Like

  14. […] right in front of them. It’s a common occurrence on Christian blogs, sometimes given a slightly different tweak to instill fear at a monolithic, uncaring Universe (note: I linked to Mak’s article about a […]

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