What I would say to a theist


I stood up as best I could to their disgusting stupidity and brutality, but I did not, of course, manage to beat them at their own game. It was a fight to the bitter end, one in which I was not defending ideals or beliefs but simply my own self.

George Grosz
In this address, let it be known, I have been unable to find a label that would fit me. I hold no pretensions to knowing anything about or believing the supernatural. I find all such claims to be a load of bullshit unbelievable. Any claim, religious or otherwise, that relies on being divinely revealed has no tract with me whatsoever. If, you feel, what will follow this intro might offend your sensibilities, this is the time to stop.
It is ambitious on the part of the christian to expect me to not judge their religion based on their conduct but on, what is at best, anonymous writings of 1st to 2nd century Jews. And if the question is just about relationship with Jesus, one wonders why it has not, in most of the believers, effected any marked difference between them and those not part of this relationship.
I do not pretend to know what happens after we die. Experience, however, shows me that bodies rot. I don’t know of minds without bodies and I don’t know of any existence after death. I will not live my life on the hope that there is a future where all will be all rosy. I see no reason you should believe a god who, in this world, was unable to give you gold to give it to you in a future existence where, as far as I can tell, from all the writings of the divines charlatans, you will have no use for it.
Human reason is sufficient to arrive at the most rational ideals to live by. There is no need for a god or sun of gods to tell you to respect your mother, help your poor neighbour. It is, to me, an indictment on your humanity to claim, without shame, your inability, through reason, to arrive at modes of behaviour that are beneficial to you and society at large.
And if, as you so imply, that Christianity is a private belief, let it remain so. Do not insist to have laws made according to your books and expect them to apply to everyone else. They are your books. Ask for dispensation to apply them in your lives only and you bet, there will be little opposition or criticism of your affairs. But the moment you oppose science education because it contradicts Genesis, I will use everything, excluding violence to oppose you. I will ridicule your beliefs. I will criticize your beliefs. And I will stand in opposition to your wanting them imposed on those who disagree with you.
I will, for as long as I can, ridicule the belief that it is possible to curse a tree out of season, that a dead man walks, that people can miraculously speak languages they understand not, that fishes can be used for transport, that virgins give birth and stay perpetual virgins, that donkeys talk. Your sensibilities maybe hurt, but that, I promise you, is the least of my worries.
My rejection of your beliefs, your Jesus and your god, is not out of a disdain for love. I reject your religion because it is silly. It is incredible. It is baseless. It stands on a foundation built upon ignorance. It is based on heresy. That a person believed that some dead guy had come back to life and was doing visitations eating fish and bread when the occasion to identify himself showed up. I can’t believe it.
Since, I have no John to quote, I will end by telling you, it is a waste of human reason and intellect to hold some book as special because you have been told so. It is evidence of a degenerate mind to assent belief to so incredulous propositions and to proudly express them.
This post was in response to what I would say to an atheist
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About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

53 thoughts on “What I would say to a theist

  1. You do find them Mak. I would say much the same as you, except probably waste less of my time and breath. I might consider adding the usual, ‘how do you know your particular choice (it’s never choice because they have been called/chosen) is the right one?’ Whether of christian sect or actual religion? Luckily I don’t have conversations like that in real life.

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    • makagutu says:

      They are everywhere. I give it to Ark, Violet and John to find the really mad ones like Tribulus or whatever the name is.
      You do well not to waste time finding them.
      I am surrounded everywhere by those who think I should be prayed for.

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  2. carmen says:

    Your words remind me of a quote – “In a truly civil society, the right to free expression trumps the desire of religious people not to have their feelings hurt. The ‘offended’ just have to grin and bear it. They need to grow up.”

    That is a thought-provoking reply, Mak!

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  3. Howie says:

    Hey Mak – I left a comment on that blog (Matthew’s). Curious if it gets out of moderation.

    His paragraph before the John 3:17 quote is very strange. He wants us to make sure we don’t believe for the reasons he would prefer, instead of simply rejecting the belief because it looks like legend and mythology.

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    • makagutu says:

      His statement looks like blackmail. He wants it to appear like we have rejected love and an offer for all things to be made right. Then adds that we shouldn’t be influenced by believers doing it wrong as an afterthought

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  4. emmylgant says:

    Uhh… Can I say ‘amen’ to that?
    I disagree on one point Mak : Their religious convictions are not silly. They are appalling and dangerous. They are divisive, exclusive, and a blight on mankind. That’s my opinion based on historical evidence, not hysterical blindness.
    Just saying.

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    • makagutu says:

      I agree. Blame it on my very limited vocabulary

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    • How about another way of looking at it? Because I too often describe them as silly, so I can understand Mak’s choice of words. It’s the effects of their silly, asinine, incredible, illogical blah blah beliefs that are dangerous. When they start trying to affect other people. And as a result of their [insert adjective of choice] beliefs, their behaviour and speech then becomes appalling as they insult people who don’t subscribe to said beliefs, and exceed the bounds of normal civil behaviour.

      Sorry for butting in.

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    • Brian M says:

      And evil. The fundamental premises are evil. 😦

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      • makagutu says:

        You are right, Brian.
        The christian starts with the premise that one is born broken in need of fixing and attempts to achieve this by asking you to believe in absurdities

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  5. fojap says:

    Strange article. The notion that a person can simply choose to have Jesus Christ as their lord and savior is not comprehensible to me. I don’t even really have that much of a problem with the statement about not judging Jesus Christ by the actions of his followers. But, I still don’t see any reason to believe he exists. How can I “choose” as my lord and savior someone I don’t believe exists? It would be like choosing to believe anything else I currently think is untrue. I’m not even certain that there was an historical Jesus, but if there was he must be dead by now.

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  6. john zande says:

    This should be the Header on all Humanist literature.

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  7. Well said, my friend. As any rational person can tell you, christians are the dogs of Satan leading mankind away from the One True God, Allah and His Prophet, Mohammad. Once infidels like this blasphemous man who’s post you refer to understand how evil they are for believing in the bible and not the Koran, the world will literally flower with love and sugary things. Until the lying bane of christainity is lifted from us, we will be forced to endure Allah’s wrath for all the “unbelief” that’s out there. Christians are atheists because they believe in a false, unreal god. Only Allah is real. This is my faith, my truth, and it is what I very much believe should be forced down the throats of christian infidels who hurt my feelings by slandering Allah and the Koran with their gibberish about trinities and Jesus. $Amen$
    P.S. This is one of your best written posts, my friend. Good stuff.

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    • makagutu says:

      I see you have ditched our deity, the Golden Boot, for whom we are the only true last prophets.
      You are right though, the only True god is Allah and Christians are idolaters for worshiping a false god

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  8. >>> “I will end by telling you, it is a waste of human reason and intellect to hold some book as special because you have been told so.”

    Bravo!

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  9. But you know that I am truly upon a Cloud right? *winks*

    Great post mak, really well written.

    – sonmi – really on a Cloud but not showing off.

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  10. Ain't No Shrinking Violet says:

    “I see no reason you should believe a god who, in this world, was unable to give you gold to give it to you in a future existence where, as far as I can tell, from all the writings of the divines charlatans, YOU WILL HAVE NO USE FOR IT.” (emphasis mine)

    I had never actually thought if it that way…and now that you brought it up, it pisses me off. What use is a white robe and a golden crown in f’ing heaven?

    You know there are those, like the mormons, who believe heaven isn’t a place of perfection…that there are problems there too. Which makes me think “what’s the point, then?”

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    • makagutu says:

      It doesn’t make sense whichever way one thinks about it.
      I didn’t want to piss you off, my friend, sorry.

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      • Ain't No Shrinking Violet says:

        No worries, it’s only the ridiculousness of religion that pisses me off. I quite agree none of it makes sense, no matter which way you try to slice it. I thought this post of yours was really good.

        Arch’s modem got fried by lightning so he had to get a new one…he’s back online.

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        • makagutu says:

          It is only possible to see how ridiculous some beliefs are when looking from outside.
          Reminds me of how silly football fans look to me when they discuss who was bought by their team, a team they have no stake in whatsoever.
          I hope Ark will not see this comment 🙂

          Liked by 1 person

          • Ain't No Shrinking Violet says:

            “It is only possible to see how ridiculous some beliefs are when looking from outside.”

            Yes. It’s embarrassing as hell when you’ve been a christian your whole life, and then when you finally come to your senses, you stand in horror over the sham of it. Ugh! At least I’m out of it now.

            Your blog gives me lots of new ways to think about things, which is good. 🙂 I don’t always have time to comment, but I learn a lot from you and your commenters.

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          • makagutu says:

            Am glad you get entertained when you visit.

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  11. Ain't No Shrinking Violet says:

    Hey Mak, have you seen Arch lately?

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  12. shelldigger says:

    I submit my humble appreciation for these words Mak. A true definition of what it is to be a thinking atheist. We have no need of religion, we have perfectly reasonable minds and wonderful lives to live.

    Fuck the brain rot bullshit that is religion.

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  13. Nan says:

    At the risk of having everyone here think I’m nuts …

    I actually found the referenced post far above many others written by Christians. While I myself long ago put any “holy beliefs” in the trashcan, I do understand where this writer is coming from — at least in this article (I didn’t read anything else on his blog). I felt he was actually trying to demonstrate the “love of Christ” rather than condemning all non-believers to the fiery pit through threats and intimidation.

    Certainly I agree there are those (some of them already mentioned here) who don’t deserve to call themselves “Christian.” But this individual did seem sincere in his belief — for whatever that’s worth.

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    • makagutu says:

      Nan, my friend, don’t worry about being thought nuts here. I know you are not.
      I agree, sincere he really does seem, and that I don’t contest. To think everyone must accent to it, when there is Buddhism with its nirvana is to ask for too much, I think.

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    • Wow. That post is a whole new brand of crazy. At least it’s honest, though. Since christianity can’t logically be defended, don’t even bother trying, just be obstinate about ramming it up the asses of others. Beautiful sentiment there.

      Liked by 1 person

    • makagutu says:

      That is a low flying fruit. But he recognizes they are at a corner

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      • Howie says:

        Yeah, seems he does recognize it, Mak. Maybe that’s progress – or maybe not – is the person that’s trying hard to figure out how to make sense of their belief closer to realizing the problem, or is the person who gives up explaining and just says “it’s true no matter what”?

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        • makagutu says:

          I prefer the one who honestly says it is a matter of faith and stops there.
          But those who claim there is some evidence or something reasonable about it, those I don’t like

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          • Howie says:

            I totally understand the desire for honesty from others. Only when I was a Christian I was being totally honest when I said that I thought the evidence and reasoning was good enough to believe. I no longer believe that because I continued to study and came to realize I had made some mistakes.

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          • makagutu says:

            When I was a believer, I can only describe my belief as having been sheltered. So questions of evidence didn’t arise for me. I believe if they did, I would quit sooner. The moment I began questioning, I couldn’t last a day more in church.

            Liked by 1 person

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