where are the Christians when you need them?


I think it’s a problem that people are considered immoral if they’re not religious. That’s just not true…. If you do something for a religious reason, you do it because you’ll be rewarded in an afterlife or in this world. That’s not quite as good as something you do for purely generous reasons.

LISA RANDALL, Discover Magazine, July 2006

It has been argued, often, by the religious that, one who does not believe as they do, in an invisible overlord, has not the capacity to act morally. Many a religious apologist have filled the internet with this type of banter. Many sheeples seem to believe this as true and often ask the atheist how or on what ground does he claim to act morally.

The atheist in her defense has pointed the theist to the Euthyphro Dilemma[pdf] in the slim hope that the theist may spend a few minutes of their time to consider the challenge as presented by Plato. It appears to me, either that the theist does not read or if they do read, are incapable of understanding the problem of Socrates in the dialogue.

To help the theist therefore, a kind fellow, Max Maxwell, has developed several questions based on the Socratic method. In the Moral bankruptcy of faith, he explores the inadequacy of religious faith in adjudicating on morality. I would like any theist who visits this page to leave a comment on what they think Max has ignored or where they think his reasoning is fallacious.

I would also challenge the theist to convincingly tell me and other readers here why, if religion* has no say on morals, doesn’t answer why we suffer and has no evidence in its support among others, why they are still religious. Given that the religious person believes the atheist is lost, I think this will go along way into bringing them back to the fold.

*Whenever religion is used in this blog, it means belief in the supernatural.

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About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

70 thoughts on “where are the Christians when you need them?

  1. emmylgant says:

    Can’t wait to see the responses…

    Like

  2. Mordanicus says:

    >>*Whenever religion is used in this blog, it means belief in the supernatural.

    Thanks for the clarification. I won’t refer to “religious naturalism”.

    Like

  3. Looking forward to the responses you may or may not get from the morally righteous faithful Muslims out there. Christians can’t really answer cause their god isn’t real. I know this because it says so in the Koran. 🙂

    Like

  4. Morals are not religion. Morals are right and wrong, something all people can understand with or without religion. The difference between morals taught by faith and morals taught by nonfat are easy. Those without religious based morals will never judge you as immoral because you believe in god. Those without faith based morals will never demand others take their morals or die. This is because they realize morals are not religious at all but social.

    Like

  5. john zande says:

    Socrates: Sadly, I am more unfortunate than the atheists. I do not even understand the nature of morality.

    Brilliant!

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  6. […] Source: where are the Christians when you need them? […]

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  7. shelldigger says:

    They will be rolling in here any day now with all of the evidence and answers you need Mak. Yep, any day now. I’m looking at the clock, and now the calander, any day now. I am sure of it.

    🙂

    Like

  8. Reblogged this on myatheistlife and commented:
    I too would like to see the answers and thoughts of believers to this challenge. It’s a challenge issued long ago. The answers are always interesting.

    Like

  9. Socrates: You say the atheist cannot be moral. Yet, if we continue to fail in our search to find even one example in which religious faith is able to actually fulfill morality in the absence of secular knowledge, then I must say that it is not the atheist but religious people who rely on faith without regard to knowledge that are morally disadvantaged.

    Preacher: But religious people do have secular knowledge.

    Socrates: Yes they do, and does it not seem to you that every example of moral behavior we can come up with involves some secular knowledge that is necessary to perform that behavior?

    Preacher: I must admit that this seems to be true.

    Socrates: Since we have seen it is secular knowledge that fulfills morality by empowering the carrying out of moral deeds, isn’t it true that religious people are capable of fulfilling morality only to the extent that they possess the secular knowledge that they share in common with atheists?

    Preacher: It appears so.

    ———————-

    I live in the most dysfunctional region of the U.S. — which just so happens to be the most religious. The most secular states have been rated the highest with regard to well being — having the highest quality of life.

    Secular Societies Fare Better Than Religious Societies
    “The latest special report just put out by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development lists the states with the worst/best quality of life. According to this multivariate analysis which takes into account a plethora of indicators of societal well-being, those states in America with the worst quality of life tend to be among the most God-loving/most religious while those states with the best quality of life tend to be among the least God-loving/least religious.

    The more secular tend to fare better than the more religious on a vast host of measures, including homicide and violent crime rates, poverty rates, obesity and diabetes rates, child abuse rates, educational attainment levels, income levels, unemployment rates, rates of sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancy.

    On nearly every sociological measure of well-being, you’re most likely to find the more secular states with the lowest levels of faith in God and the lowest rates of church attendance faring the best and the most religious states with the highest levels of faith in God and rates of church attendance faring the worst.”

    Excellent post, Noel.

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      Thanks Victoria.
      The most religious states are busy praying to their gods to have time for doing anything constructive to improve their lives.

      Like

  10. Ain't No Shrinking Violet says:

    You know Mak, I find you atheists tend to complicate *everything.* You should know there’s no morality outside of the One True Church, because everything out there is infected by Satan and his minions. The Bible says so, and don’t even think about arguing that with me, because it’s “god-breathed” and your puny mind can’t make sense of it. It’s not that complicated, dude…get your indoctrination straightened out.

    😉

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      Hahaha, Vi.
      Atheists are trying to make everything that looked complex, easy.
      When the goddites were in charge, they made everyone believe ethics was breathed by their god. The atheist is telling you, nothing like that happened. These result from social interactions. It is the atheists who is always making things easy.

      Like

      • Ain't No Shrinking Violet says:

        Well ok, but you must admit atheists ask all these ANNOYING questions all the time. When I was a katlick you sat down, shut up, and didn’t dare make a peep about god-breathed directives. You atheists don’t seem to get that message and insist on stirring up trouble. 🙂

        Like

        • makagutu says:

          The word has progressed only because someone dared to challenge the status quo.
          Let us thank the atheists for always doing this. And anyone along the way who has been a rebel, a critic and a dissenter

          Like

  11. Barry says:

    I was going to comment, but your proviso that “Whenever religion is used in this blog, it means belief in the supernatural” kind of rules me out 🙂

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      Hi Barry.
      I make that distinction because, as you are aware, there are those who claim football is their religion or those who say their religion is doing good. Those usages of religion don’t interest me in this post.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. Peter says:

    Dave Allen as always put things into perspective:

    The Pope and an atheist are having a discussion… and it slowly gets more and more heated until eventually the Pope can’t take it anymore and he says to the atheist – “You are like a man who is blindfolded, in a dark room who is looking for a black cat that isn’t there.” The atheist laughs and says – “With all due respect, we sound awfully similar. You are like a man who is blindfolded, in a dark room who is looking for a black cat that isn’t there but the difference is you’ve found it

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  13. I thought I’d wait for all the Christian comments to pour in before I commented. I guess you and I just don’t attract the right sort of people?

    Like

  14. If being religious is moral. I look at the work of IS, the catholic church child abuse scandal and the Duggar debacle… And then rejoice that I’m an immoral, baby-eating atheist!

    Like

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