for the deity.
I have seen it written by some goddites we shouldn’t be complaining about evil. All the things suffering, the pain and the struggles were meant by deity to build our character. It seems, to me, omniscience had to go through the charade of making people suffer to guide it in choosing who should be damned and who shouldn’t. Rational people must ask why a god would create animals who can suffer, but didn’t find it in divine omniscience to tell them the suffering was temporary and meant to build their character.
What happens to those who fail this test? Those who for some reason due to their suffering went mad, what becomes of them? Does the deity accept them in heaven and cure them of their madness? And if this is the case, what was the point of omniscience having them here knowing they would go mad and then accept them in heaven whole?
The goddite who argues this is the best possible world must be the most unimaginative sort. From where I sit, I can conceive of a world that doesn’t exist, I can also conceive a world without suffering or a world where all the animals are not conscious of their suffering. To tell me omniscience and omnipotence couldn’t do better than this is, to me, blasphemy against deity.
This comment
But what you call abuse and malicious is a refining of you and your character. Without trial or hardship this would be no test from deity at all. Nor would you grow to learn and appreciate all the gifts and opportunities we are given. You would stay the spoiled school child and never grow to be a man, or a man of God. You see this life is a gift and a test, a proving ground if you will, and God allows evil in the world to see what you will do out of his presence.
on SB’s post on faith very disturbing.
I will end this post by a saying of Celsus on whether the world was created for us or for the lower animals- as we like to call them
We indeed by labor and suffering earn a scanty and toilsome subsistence, while all things are produced for them without their sowing and plowing.
Random thoughts 
Reminds me of Mother Teresa. “Suffering brings people closer to…” Mithra’s cousin. It’s a necessary part of the psychological manipulation of religion. If something wonderful happens, it’s because Mithra’s cousin did it. If something terrible happens, Mithra’s cousin is testing you so you become closer to him.
That twisted logic is actually the backbone of patriarchy. If a child ‘behaves well’, the credit is to the family. If a child ‘behaves badly’, suddenly the responsibility is exclusively the individual’s and they’re dishonouring their family.
It’s a very clever system where we can attribute all good to one side and all bad to the other.
LikeLike
”Mithra’s cousin”. Sheer poetic brilliance!
LikeLike
We have to call things by what they actually are 😉
LikeLike
Pink you are just awesome. Mithra’s cousin did it. If one finds a parking lot, thanks be to Mithra’s cousin.
And you are spot on the religious system.
LikeLike
Another fine post, my friend.
LikeLike
Your character is being built to make you good for a seat in heaven next to Allah.
LikeLike
$Amen$
LikeLike
This nonsense from the Christian is always bemusing. By their claims, we have a omniscient being that somehow “needs” to test. So, it can’t know what people will do? Not much of a god, is he?
And this god can’t just make people the way it wants? Why not? Why the puppet show?
LikeLike
Do you mean to say that when we see that person whose legs are shrivelled by polio and who lost both arms in an explosion painting a christmas card with a paintbrush held in their mouth, that’s not god’s work? It doesn’t prove the wonderfulness of god’s plan?
LikeLike
God works in mysterious ways or no ways at all. Christians have everything thought out already
LikeLike
grrrr. I remember all that drek from going to church and hearing how wonderful it was. I certainly don’t find bedsores wonderful.
LikeLike
And he is the grand puppeteer.
The people who claim omniscience and then use the character building excuse to explain suffering haven’t given the word any serious thought.
LikeLike
The more people understand the bible the more they realise it could only have been written by humans and the god created in the same way.
LikeLike
Unfortunately, most people die believing the bible was written under the guidance of a god.
LikeLike
Well, we must do our best to change this perception, Mak, right? 🙂
LikeLike
We must.
Lately your blog eats my comments. And it is your blog only. I could have become a resident of your spam folder
LikeLike
Really? I never check it. Let me have a look.
LikeLike
Wow, it was full of them, and also a few by Maria and Mike and Brandy.
Have no idea what’s going on. All restored. I shall check more often. I am so sorry , Mak. Thanks for the heads up.
LikeLike
No problem.
I wrote you mail a few days ago telling you maybe the gods have got to me
LikeLike
Lol … I haven’t opened my WP email for a week either.
Head space somewhere else.
Let me sort all this out.
LikeLike
I am more and more convinced that in many areas of discussion, such as about faith, discussion between the religious person and the non religious person is pointless. I say this because they will never agree, because the world views are too different.
Really the debate always come down to does ‘God’ exist or not. Because the answer to that question drives our evaluation of these second order debates about faith. Because it is incredibly difficult to have any sensible debate on whether ‘God’ exists or not, I prefer to debate the books of faith, like the Bible. Are they the sort of books that look like they have been provided by a divine being or do they look more like a human work written by the people of that time who struggled to understand the reality of life?
However even debate on these objective grounds rarely seems to get anywhere. The fundamentalist so strongly believes their book is divine that when the facts show the book is wrong (i.e. first 11 chapters of Genesis) they conclude the facts must be misrepresented (perhaps a scheme of the Devil?).
LikeLike
Peter, you are wise fellow. But I think so far, you have realized that even the approach you have chosen doesn’t get you so far.
The character building defense is one of the arguments that have been used to explain away suffering and to show that suffering and god are consistent. I only attempt to show that such a view is plagued still with more problems than the ones it began with
LikeLike
My approach has got me virtually nowhere in discussions because I have found very few Christians are even prepared to consider my arguments as to why the Bible might not be a divine book.
Christian theology says:
1. God is good; and
2. God is all powerful.
Thus many argue that somehow suffering must be for our benefit. Though Billy Graham did admit once that at times he cannot understand why God allows certain types of suffering.
LikeLike
Christian theology simply reads; god is tyrant.
I know I will get nowhere with most Christians. I raise such issues among others to try and point our how deficient some of these arguments
LikeLike
Peter, I agree that it can seem like it’s to no avail, and I’m certain that Christians think the same way about us. Nevertheless, it is educational, and it does allow us to see where people are coming from. It is my view that people who’ve been deeply indoctrinated about the punishment of eternal hell, and the rewards of heaven, will justify just about anything, and counter anything that might stimulate death anxiety, which can now be seen via fMRI imaging.
LikeLike
The spiritualists in Brazil (the second-largest “religion” here) believe that before entering heaven the soul spends time in a literal hospital where their suffering is explained and smoothed over.
LikeLike
Interesting. Does that mean all souls go to heaven? Please find out for me how this soul hears
LikeLike
Well, fortunately for you, there’s a film, Nossa Lar. This film was HUGE in Brazil a few years ago. Here is a short clip, with Eng subtitles:
LikeLike
Wow, just wow. Looks like they have watched Elysium
LikeLike
Come on! Elysium was stolen from this!
LikeLike
I apologise. That is imagination.
I don’t know how it compares to the other movie about heaven: heaven is for real
LikeLike
Of course it is. Didn’t you like the local architecture, and that light rail travel system shows urban planning brilliance!
LikeLike
It is brilliant. They even have greenery and rescue teams.
LikeLiked by 1 person
In my heaven, they only use rescue dogs to help people. It has something to do with the price of union rescue workers. Go figure.
LikeLike
do angels belong to a union? I think it would be better using angels, especially given they have been in heaven longer
LikeLike
Only the green ones. There’s a lot of racism in heaven.
LikeLike
I can imagine and I see there are different crowns for different levels of sufferers who make it to heaven. The things the religious can come up are mind boggling
LikeLike
Fascinating…they even had little flying cars. I like how everyone always dresses in white flowy robes when it comes to heavenly places, and there’s never any colorful clothing, bikinis/speedos, or high heels.
So the guy standing outside the wall with the dying flowers…was he banned from this spiritual place? Sort of a nice version of hell?
LikeLiked by 1 person
He’s the central protagonist. Not sure what he’s doing outside there, but he’s in.
LikeLike
and where do they get all that concrete? Do they have concrete mixers in heaven?
LikeLike
Watching clip reminded me of the movie Soylent Green. lol
Surprise, surprise — nom, nom, nom. — food for the gods.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Soylent Green is Charlton Heston! Soylent Green is Charlton Heston!!! “Take your hands off me, you damn, dirty ape!”
LikeLiked by 1 person
LOL
Didn’t he say that in “Planet of the Apes”?
LikeLike
He did. Along with this gem whilst gazing at the remnants of the Statue of Liberty: “You did it! God damn, you! You finally did it! God damn you!” I LOVE Planet of the Apes, as well as Soylent Green. Heston made some damn fine films.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, he did.
LikeLike
Quite the right-wing nutter in real life, but a fine actor.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yeah, I think Moses when to his head.
LikeLike
It did, but I LOVE that movie, far more than “Exodus” which Ridley Scott did last year and really, really sucked.
LikeLike
I think that cocktail I had “when” to my head, too. 😀
Cheers.
LikeLike
Indeed.
LikeLike
When Moses goes to your head, Jew know you’re in trouble. Get it, “Jew” know-cause Moses is a Jew? Hee Haw!
LikeLike
Like I said — cheers. *giggles*
LikeLike
Heee Haw!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hahaha. That is a lot of trouble. You begin to have issues with pigs among others
LikeLike
I, too, love planet of the apes.
LikeLike
The new ones are excellent too. They’ve revived the franchise quite effectively.
LikeLike
And here, at about 1 minutes, there’s the “hospital” all souls go to:
LikeLike
Most modern Christians look with disdain on the traditional concept of purgatory. But the concept was developed partly to deal with the problem that ordinary people realised they might not be ‘good enough for heaven’, but they also knew in their heart that they were not deserving of eternal torture in hell. So Purgatory met a ‘need’, a bit of temporary sorting out, then onto heaven.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Purgatory doctrine took a hit though, long ago when they said unbaptized babies will be there forever and never get to heaven…that was bad PR. Only recently did the pope decide babies went straight to heaven. Problem solved!
LikeLike
That’s a good marketer. They have a stop gap measure if you can’t afford the whole deal
LikeLike
which one was abolished; limbo or purgatory?
LikeLike
Both. They were replaced with a DMV office where you stand in line for decades only to eventually be told you’ve been standing in the wrong line and must go to the end of another line and start over. This process repeats for eternity unless your loved ones can give the Church enough $ to free you through the power of priestly prayer.
LikeLike
Hahahaha
LikeLike
Augustine agonised over the matter of unbaptised babies. His heart told him it was unfair to torture them eternally. So he concluded there must be degrees of hell and the unbaptised babies would be in the mildest part that was like a form of limbo.
Of course it all comes down to Augustine’s understanding of Original Sin. This is based on Paul’s teaching that all sinned in Adam. But if there was no literal Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden then the whole theological house of cards comes crashing down.
LikeLike
That was a real struggle. You have a loving god who also has hell to burn people who don’t qualify for eternity plus one
LikeLike
If the Yahweh had the decency to run a spiritual hospital here on earth, where he would personally attend to his suffering creation, it would probably give him better PR. His current plan of “leave ’em to rot” is hard for his publicists to put a positive spin on (though they do try).
LikeLiked by 1 person
and if he showed up, I think the questions would have been too many for it to answer
LikeLiked by 1 person
Public or private? A public Brazilian hospital is the equivalent to purgatory 😀
LikeLiked by 1 person
LOL! You’re always permitted to purchase private “healthcare” 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
The idea that horrible things are happening to other people as a way of building your character is such a ridiculous egotistical view. Religion is designed to prey on individual’s own ego.
LikeLike
To say it aloud is the height of egoism
LikeLike
I found that paragraph you’ve quoted from Sirius’ jaw-dropping. I thought it was really dogmatic, insulting and dismissive, but I tied my fingers in knots and didn’t say anything on his blog about it. The irony was, that it bore out exactly what Sirius was saying in his post in the first place.
‘No, no! You’ve got it wrong! This is how you should be looking at it, Sirius.’
Weird.
As adults we have to cope with adversity and bad times. But to seriously think it is all a silly little test to see how we cope is crazy crazy. Infantilism.
LikeLike
I can’t understand the mindset of the goddite. SB writes it is an insult to tell someone who has left the faith that they believed wrong, that you have the correct explanation and then someone says the same thing!
All we must do is to find solutions to our suffering and those of others. To tell a person their suffering is to build their character is, I think, sick
LikeLiked by 1 person
“To tell a person their suffering is to build their character is, I think, sick.”
I couldn’t agree more. But in their mind they think they are being consoling. When I hear or read people go on and on about purpose, I think they are really focusing on suffering. In their mind they need to understand, so telling someone that it’s all for a good reason might help them cope with their suffering. However, when you look at the psychological aspect of it — what they are really saying is because humans are “sinners” and disobeyed Yahweh, suffering came into the world. It’s not consoling. It’s inhumane. That is what’s so sick about it.
LikeLike
The way you put, it is even more sick! The belief that man is fallen and sick has made men sick. They do horrendous things and blame it on a fallen nature
LikeLiked by 1 person
It gets slightly sicker. Those who have more suffering are more loved by god (ever hear of Job)? Those in real agony are stacking up rewards in heaven…their crowns await, and in the catholic church, sainthood awaits. I’ve heard many a suffering christian beg for less “love” from God!
I found it quite difficult to read SB’s post and then see this christian’s response, not even realizing he was doing exactly what SB was talking about (and he did it several times). This happens a lot on SB’s blog, to the point where I’m not sure christians are actually reading his posts before they respond. Or maybe it’s that life-view thing Peter was talking about…they read the same words and translate it entirely different than we would.
LikeLike
I don’t read most of the comments after my initial comment and most times I don’t get to interact with true goddites. I guess they read but don’t understand what they read. I see no reason why if anyone understand SB, they would make a comment such as the ones this fellow wrote.
Making a virtue of suffering
LikeLiked by 1 person
You were really polite and civilised, my first thought was when I read it, ‘what the f*** are you talking about?’ (Oh wait, I can say fuck on here can’t I Mak? 🙂 )
Anyways. You did well Violet. Sirius always makes some good points, and I think because he is so thoughtful, and expresses how deconversion is difficult, maybe that’s why he attracts these characters who think he’s not really sure.
And as he said, and you did, that’s where the Internet is actually helpful to people. So many resources now for people who have doubts or want to question religion.
LikeLiked by 1 person
You can’t imagine how I had to hold myself back in my response! Yet there’s only a select few blogs where I will bitch and swear to my heart’s content…Mak’s blog being one of those places (he assures me his grandma doesn’t read his blog). Of course I bitch and swear all over my own blog, but generally I try to be civilized when visiting the writing spaces of my friends. Honestly though, sometimes “fuck” is just the most appropriate word.
Like SB, I have often discussed my difficulties with deconverting on my blog. The christian proselytizers got so aggressive with contacting me by email, I actually had to write a post telling them to fuck the hell off (in those exact words). Deconverting is painful, but that doesn’t mean I’m questioning my atheism…it just means it’s hard to throw off indoctrination.
I think I would have gone completely insane without finding such a helpful online community…I shudder to think what people deconverting alone are going through. Victoria from Neuronotes deconverted all alone, as there was no internet at the time. It must have been awful for her.
LikeLike
I can’t believe you had proselytisers emailing you 😦
Evil!
Yeah, Victoria’s an old-hand these days. And an extremely helpful, useful and supportive one.
But for people now, there is a wide atheist/deconvert network, there should be something that suits most people somewhere 🙂 And I’m glad you’ve found this circuit.
LikeLike
The proselytizers used my “contact me” page on my blog to email me (that was not my intention for the contact me page!). I swear I had at least 30 bible bangers hounding me after my first post where I talked about how hard deconversion was. A few commented publically on my blog, but most of them said the atheist commentary was “too much” for them, and they wanted to privately discuss religion with me. There was so much emotional manipulation in those emails I couldn’t bear it. After my fuck off post, at least they had the decency to stop.
LikeLike
Given what you go through each day, I must say you are built of tougher material. Luckily for me, I have never got mail from anyone telling me I believed wrong. I would have used the same language you used if I were in your position
LikeLiked by 1 person
You know you can say fuck or any other cuss word of choice here.
LikeLiked by 1 person
That’s why I did afterwords 😀
LikeLike
If all this suffering and pain is meant to build character, my questions is: what do we do with all this character that we have earned? Is their a grand prize for the most character?
Good job, my Nairobi brother! I hope that you and all the character that you have amassed are enjoying the summer! Love and naked hugs! 🙂
LikeLike
The grand prize is a gold crown in heaven. There are five different crowns…the third crown is for patiently enduring trials. Here’s an interesting link explaining them: http://so4j.com/five-crowns-rewards-in-heaven
LikeLike
Thanks for that link V,
Tell me who would not , as a believer, want those crowns. I didn’t see any crown for the godless
LikeLike
No crowns for the godless…we burn in hell. 😉
I wonder if you get more than one crown, if there’s a way to stack them all on your head so they look nice? The devil’s in the details.
LikeLike
Do we have different ranks in hell? I wouldn’t want to find CS in the same place. I would ask to die a second and third time
LikeLike
From a catholic perspective there is only one hell…that of the Lake of Fire. So hitler, CS, you, and I, will all be swimming together in the flames.
I’m not sure if other denominations have more than one level of hell or not. Mormons believe in different levels of heaven, so someone out there probably believes in different levels of hell.
LikeLike
It would be unjust to have CS for company. One how will we communicate with him? Have you read his comments on V’s blog?
LikeLike
LOL, yes, I’ve read his comments on Vi’s blog and have been to his own blog. Satan will probably pair you up with CS just so you two can drive each other insane. Sorry dude…it *is* hell, after all. 😉
LikeLike
I don’t think Satan would be that unjust to me especially after the work I do spreading the good news of no salvation
LikeLike
I think you’re mistaken there, friend. If there’s no JC, there’s no satan. You’re definitely on the outs with the Big Goat.
LikeLike
Who knows, friend, maybe I have seen the light and with a lot of books on heaven tourism, I believe them😊
LikeLike
I think that’s about as likely as hell freezing over. Oh wait…I’m not sure that analogy works for an atheist!
LikeLike
Yes. Everyone in Hell is given the label, “A-hole.” After this, there’s a numbering system depending on how big of an A-hole you were in life. For example, CS would be an A-hole #5 because, well, because he’s a BIG A-hole. Then there are babies who die without being baptized. These are A-holes #2. They’re A-holes, but it’s not their fault they’re A-holes. Their parents, who didn’t baptize them, are A-holes #3 for not doing so. Hitler is an A-hole #15, BTW. He’s one of the highest ranking A-holes in Hell. Hope this helped answer your question.
LikeLike
I have no more questions teacher
LikeLike
I can’t say this is the gospel truth, but:
Picking a punishment
This guy dies and is sent to Hell. Satan meets him and shows him the doors to three rooms and says he must choose one of the rooms to spend eternity in.
So Satan opens the first door. In the room there are people standing in cow manure up to their necks. The guy says “No, please show me the next room”.
Satan shows him the next room and this has people with cow manure up to their noses. And so he says no again.
Finally, Satan shows him the third and final room. This time there are people in there with cow manure up to their knees drinking cups of tea and eating cakes.
So the guy says, “I’ll choose this room”. Satan says O.K. The guys is standing in there eating his cake and drinking his tea thinking, “Well, it could be worse”, when the door opens. Satan pops his head around, and says “O.K. tea-break is over. Back on your heads!”
don’t worry it is a joke!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hahaha.
Peter, I love your jokes
LikeLike
Trials of Heaven?
Three guys die together and go to heaven…. St. Peter says, “We only have one rule…don’t step on the ducks as they are God’s favorite creation.”
They enter heaven and see ducks everywhere, and it’s almost impossible to not step on a duck. The first guy accidentally steps on one, and soon here comes St. Peter with the biggest, ugliest woman he’d ever seen…
St. Peter chains them together and says, “Your punishment is to be chained to this ugly woman forever.”
The next day the second guy steps on a duck…Sure enough, St. Peter comes with another ugly woman and chains them together.
Seeing this, the third guy is very, very careful. He goes for months and doesn’t step on any ducks. One day, St. Peter comes along with this beautiful woman: Blonde, blue-eyed, very young and very sexy. He chains them together and leaves without a word.
The man remarks, “I wonder what I did to deserve this good fortune?” And the Blonde says, “I don’t know about you, but I stepped on a duck.
LikeLike
Haha. That’s worse than walking on broken glass
LikeLike
I am donating some character. Do you want some?
LikeLiked by 1 person
My Nairobi brother, I am in need of whatever I can get! LOL!
LikeLike
I have sent you one mature character and a young one by holy spirit express. Please confirm receipt
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you, O Sanctified One! 😉
LikeLike
Pain and suffering is a builder of character in some ways. But to take that and spin it to explain your gods shortcomings is a tad, as roughseasinthemed said, infantile.
That they cling to this so tightly is to me a sign of desperation. Desperately avoiding the fact that there is no good reason for suffering in this world, if their supposed god had any empathy whatsoever. Thine armor is chinked.
LikeLike
Why would their all knowing, loving and powerful god want to test anyone anyway?
I sent you mail.
LikeLike
Just to check and see if his omniscience is working properly?
I haz mail! Yay! Say, I have been all over my damn dashboard and cannot find any mail. Can I have one hint?
LikeLike
they must doubt omniscience
LikeLike
psst, nevermind I found it!
LikeLike
“Pain and suffering is a builder of character in some ways.” Very true. This is why I keep broken glass in my shoes. One day, I’m hoping all the pain, bleeding, and infection makes me a great person. Ain’t worked yet, but I’m not gonna give up!
LikeLike
Let me know how that turns out 🙂 In the meantime Neosporin is great stuff!
LikeLike
As is a good morphine drip. 🙂
LikeLike
Damn that sounds…heavenly. If I ever decide to just give up I want a morphine drip! Maybe a morphine drip vacation? It would be nice to just say the hell with everything for a couple of days.
LikeLike
That would be, forgive the irony, heavenly
LikeLike
Hahahaha! You can make an argument absurd without trying hard. You amaze me my friend
LikeLike
It’s my experience that most arguments are absurd, especially those I stick my nose into unwanted. 🙂
LikeLike
At this rate, I am going to keep hacking your account. You can report me to wp
LikeLike
Already have. They’re gonna spank you when they find you. You nasty man, you.
LikeLike