Does science disprove god? so the question gets asked.
Most who are scientifically minded quickly say no. They quickly add science is not in the business of god and accommodationists argue science and religion occupy different magestria.
But is this really the case or is this about modesty?
Take for example the case of evolution. If evolution is fact, Genesis 1 is disproved and this is a case of science disproving god. I may add here, for the benefit of my critique, that the theist could argue that it is their god that put the mechanism for evolution in place. This could be the case but they will have to choose whether such a god is beneficent or omnipotent.
In the same scenario, does an old universe disprove god? I think it does. And more still, whereas both the theist and atheist are ignorant of whether the universe is self existing or created, the atheist can say that so far as we know, all manifestations in nature (that is phenomena) need no supernatural push and to this extent science has shown no divine agency is necessary.
But one may ask about the nature of things in themselves and whether there is an Unknowable something beyond it all. Here, the theist may argue that at the beyond phenomena, in the dark areas where human knowledge can’t penetrate, there, their god resides. The atheist will argue from the indestructibility of matter and persistence of force, lies the source of all things. Since this is beyond all possible experience, conceding this to the theist gives them no advantage over the atheist.
In conclusion, in the area of experience, which is, in my view, the purview of science, it has been demonstrated there is no god, whatever they are conceived to be, but beyond the level of experience, everyone, atheist and theist alike are free to speculate all they want. Each must however remember that to think something could be, does not translate to it being.
Random thoughts 
We could clarify this to state science disproves each particular god. Where have claims made by the religions, and these can be isolated and shown to be false. Science disproves all recorded gods, but not necessarily the deistic notion. That exists in its own category and cannot be disproved as that god-notion does not interfere in this world, so we shouldn’t expect to see any influence. Plus, no claims are made by the deist beyond the suggestion that that being is responsible (somehow) for existence, and we’re therefore either working towards it, or, as Scott proposes, reassembling it. Deism and Humanism can coexist quite happily, I think. Theism and Humanism are antagonistic by nature.
LikeLike
You are right John and it is this god, the deist god I allude to that is beyond experience. Any personal god is disproved by science
LikeLiked by 1 person
Nicely put. I concur with your statement.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I second that.
LikeLike
A third to that.
LikeLike
… and a fourth.
LikeLike
Good post!
LikeLiked by 1 person
As John says OM “Theism and Humanism are antagonistic by nature.” More than that perhaps, each is the antithesis of the other, each adherent to either left preaching to the converted alone. Then again, we human animals do so love to prove ourselves correct, and seem to know little of futility.
LikeLike
I think the biggest problem for us humans is to forget the relativity of knowledge
LikeLiked by 1 person
well, a fellow called “Christ centered teaching” will tell me how Einstein supports his creationist deepities over on Mike’s blog, what comes to my mind. It’s sure to be true……
Train wreck to follow 🙂
LikeLike
I have read a few of CCT’s comments. I think he is close to be the train in the train wreck
LikeLike
heh. He hasn’t returned to teach me yet. I do wonder if he will.
LikeLike
Science isn’t in the business of proof. It’s in the business of modeling reality accurately and, in this sense, is incompatible with religious belief that denies reality any say in religious claims made about it.
The fact that modeling reality accurately demonstrates “no supernatural push and to this extent science has shown no divine agency is necessary” is a damning report on religious beliefs holds sway only over those who think reality should have some dominant say for claims made about it. The religious, by necessity, are immune from reality’s arbitration of their claims and in this sense cannot be convinced by anything reality has to say in these matters. So science cannot by religious fiat disprove god because it never had any say in the matter to begin with.
LikeLike
to the religiosi, science is human and can’t be right except when they depend on a seat belt or lightning rod
LikeLike
Funny, that remarkable compartmentalization ability the religious must implement. Almost an art, really.
LikeLike
I think it is an art
LikeLike
Science isn’t in the business of proof. It’s in the business of modeling reality accurately
I’ve got to remember this line.
LikeLike
In thinking all this over, and having read way too many ‘he said/she said” arguments, I find that in theism there is a huge amount of “me-ism” involved , to the point where it becomes a personal god, from God’s lips to my ear sorta thing, and for someone to deny the existence of that personal god might just be stepping too close to something you simply do not want to let go of–and it can be very difficult to let go of what must be a heady experience on a daily, hourly basis, “God is talking to ME…”
There is also the wavery note of fear, because they have leaned on this personal God for so many years. If they faced the fact of a badly built foundation erected on shifting sands, there would be nothing left to lean on. Your own personal recognizance, while also heady, can be a strange and wondrous place to be in, but it takes time to get used to, and to learn what works and what doesnt work. We are all we have. It’s not always pleasant to know that.
Scientists, heavy thinkers, deep thinkers, face this kind of reality daily and are well aware of how nebulous a craft they practice. About the best anyone can do is say, truthfully, something happened, but we arent sure how or when or why. Just that it did. And for now, that’s enough.
LikeLike
Hi judy
I agree with what you say here.
I don’t know is a statement some of us never learnt.
The theist cannot talk about their god without the me-ism as you put it. Unless they want to be considered polytheists or deists
LikeLiked by 1 person
It is amazing how the three-omnis creator of the vast universe is so interested in speaking to people like preacher Jeremiah Whatshisname from Boll Weevil, Alabama about various important topics. The Holy Spirit clearly informed one Prophetic Minister that Donald Trump will be The Trumpet of the Lord in 2016. Get it? Trump….Trumpet. My mind boggles
LikeLike
perfect, just perfect. made me laugh out loud, that one did —
LikeLike
I am at a loss for words
LikeLike
As one who is religious, but neither a theist nor a deist, I have to disagree with your argument that if evolution is fact, then Genesis 1 is disproved and this is a case of science disproving god. It’s a case of science proving Genesis 1 is not factual. It does not disprove god.
The same can be said for an old universe. Again it’s a case of science disproving a young universe. It does not prove a deity does not exist. It only proves the stories attributed to a deity creating a universe are not factual.
LikeLike
As one who is religious, but neither a theist nor a deist”
Barry, are you a polytheist?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I, too, would love to know
LikeLike
Mak, I’ve become a Polyurethane. I worship shiny plastics. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oh boy! You make my days.
What happens to our only true deity, The Golden Boot
LikeLike
Simple. We cover him in Polyurethane and make one god from two. $Amen$
LikeLike
He worships a parrot, serious! I have a picture of this god … Hang fire!
LikeLike
perhaps one day it will be an “Ex-Parrot!!” 🙂
LikeLike
No. I have a sense of the divine, but I’m not prepared to define it any further, simply because I can’t. I don’t believe in supernatural beings, although I’ve not seen sufficient proof to be absolutely sure they don’t exist. I suppose one could describe me as a pantheist.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Barry, thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. 🙂
LikeLike
I’ve given a somewhat more complete explanation in my reply to makagutu below. I’m not sure if it will help or hinder an understanding of what I believe. Perhaps it’s about time I updated my own blog with a a post on the subject…
LikeLike
Barry hope you have been well. Haven’t seen you many days.
Are you a spiritualist? Those who believe in some power and not a personal god?
There is no other place deity is described except in religious books and if the claims made by such books are not factual, the deity they describe doesn’t exist. You will have to describe another deity.
LikeLike
Migraines can cause what I term “brain fog”, that kind of limits any sort of intellectual discussion, and the best I can do is click the “like” button if a blog makes sense to me.
Deities are not only mentioned in books. They have been part of oral tradition in most, if not all cultures. This doesn’t prove they exist, but I suspect that such beliefs have evolved with mankind.
Some people, myself included, have a sense or awareness of something beyond that which can be explained rationally. I have no idea if it really exists, is part of cultural/social conditioning, or part of the evolutionary process that aided human survival, and personally I don’t think its source is important. But whatever it is, I’m not able to deny it.
My own thought is that religion is an attempt to rationalise this sense by giving it natural or supernatural powers. Perhaps there is a form of religion that is “correct”, but as we have no way of verifying that, I respect all religions provided it does not try to impose its beliefs on others. This goes for Christianity and atheism as well.
LikeLike
Some people, myself included, have a sense or awareness of something beyond that which can be explained rationally. I have no idea if it really exists, is part of cultural/social conditioning, or part of the evolutionary process that aided human survival, and personally I don’t think its source is important. But whatever it is, I’m not able to deny it.
And if this source of this sense, this awareness, can be demonstrated to originate solely within your own cerebral cortex, then does that matter to you at all?
LikeLike
No 🙂
LikeLike
See, that’s a problem… if and only if you want to find out if this sense correctly identifies an real exterior source or an imaginary interior creation.
I would think that source matters if one wishes to evaluate the possibility that it’s real or pure fiction rather than take on board an assumption that has no means to establish any truth value to it independent of inserting some level of confidence where none is warranted by merit.
I would think that the source doesn’t matter only if one wishes to maintain that most uncomfortable position of trying to straddle the faith fence… to be able to disagree with most if not all religious beliefs on one butt cheek while keeping the other free to say, Hey, I ain’t no kin to no athiesm.
LikeLike
“I would think that source matters if one wishes to evaluate the possibility that it’s real or pure fiction rather than take on board an assumption that has no means to establish any truth value to it independent of inserting some level of confidence where none is warranted by merit.”
I’m struggling to understand what you mean by this sentence. What do you mean by “truth value“?
Why would I ever want to say “Hey, I ain’t no kin to no atheism“? Am I supposed to believe something is wrong with it? Atheism is a perfectly rational point of view,
LikeLike
Very well Barry. In the OP, I said the gods that are out beyond possible experience are not affected by my argument.
Tolerance for each other is important and I would be the last person to oppose it.
LikeLike
I couldn’t help but think of you, Barry, when I read this.
LikeLike
The creators of those drawings are great at what they do
LikeLike
Yeah, it usually takes me about 1500 words to express the same idea.
LikeLike
I like it! I’d go as far as to agree with the first frame, but after that I
part company. Firstly I don’t “know” there is “something else”. It’s a sense, or feeling, not a fact. It’s quite possible it’s all in the mind. So what? If it stirs my conscience to consider and question my values, then it’s doing its job.
I certainly don’t consider myself above anyone else. In fact quite the opposite. I sometimes wish I was certain of what I believe as many religious and atheistic folk are.
Being the butt of peoples jokes for more than fifty years, kind of takes the edge off any sense of superiority. In fact it tends to have the opposite effect – thinking one is somehow inferior. It wasn’t until I was diagnosed as autistic when I was sixty that I realised I wasn’t less than other people, just different. Now I’m making up for lost time 🙂
LikeLike
One fact you fail to mention here, Mak is this: God exists in a space-less, timeless, boundless, immaterial realm. He watches over us from there. And though I, nor anyone else, can prove any of this gibberish, it is undeniably true since atheist dogs can not prove it is not. I know more than you, and I’m so much smarter than you, because I know this is true. The words “I don’t know” never come from my mouth because I do know, and since you can’t prove I don’t, you must except that I do, give me tax exempt status on my church, give 10% of your wages to my church if you join it, and kiss my ass with with bowed deference because, if you don’t, I’ll cry and say you’re disrespecting me and my undeniably true religion. $Amen$ 😀
LikeLike
bless you my child, go in peace.
or if you prefer, “dominix vobiscum, et tu spritu tuo”
LikeLike
The priests I knew used to always say this to me: “Di te PERDANT, te MALEDICO” .
LikeLike
lol
(love the icon)
LikeLike
Icon? That’s a real life photo of me. Yes, I’m only 2 feet tall and I really do have a lightening bolt glued to my hand due to a foolish mistake I made involving lightening and gorilla glue some years ago. 🙂
LikeLike
at confessions priest used to say go yea and sin no more; Were they being ambitious?
LikeLike
I am sorry last prophet. How many Hail Marys should I say
LikeLike
Say three and send ten dollars into the timeless, space-less, immaterial realm where some gods might live.
LikeLike
thank you last prophet.
The money has been sent by holy spirit express
LikeLike
A very compelling thought, my Nairobi brother. One that will further the debate even further. Belief and knowledge are two entirely separate qualities that will probably never reconcile during our lifetimes. A wonderful mid-week debate. Much love and many naked hugs! 🙂
LikeLike
much love brother and hugs.
I love good discussions
LikeLiked by 1 person
“If there is a God, his plan is very similar to someone not having a plan.” ― Eddie Izzard
– sonmi nodding upon the Cloud
LikeLike
hi sonmi.
I agree with Eddie
LikeLiked by 1 person
Me too.
– s.u.t.Cloud
LikeLike
[…] This post by Makagutu over at “Random Thoughts” discusses the relationship between science and belief in deities. Often there are many statements about this on the Internet, ranging from “science disproves god” to “science disproves atheism.” Navigating through the truth of these statements requires careful examination, and often there’s no quick way to tell whether or not one can agree with a statement. […]
LikeLike