In his book, The Arguments for god, John Hick writes
Let us consider the case-the admittedly extreme case – of the humanist who knowingly sacrifices his life for the sake of humanity as a whole. We are thus thinking of self-sacrifice on moral principle….
And the question I wish to pose is how such conscientious self sacrifice can be defended in humanist terms as rational or reasonable act?
And I will offer to argue that no such person exists, either among theists or non theists. I further suggest that the word self-sacrifice is a word that has no place in the dictionary. Additionally if a person wants to use this as an argument for the existence of a god, they should think again.
Random thoughts 
As far as I am aware, the justification for sacrificing the self for the group mostly comes from humanity’s social instincts. People who are better able to defend the group have a group that lives longer, which propagates, which flourishes. The loners out there tend to die alone.
The interesting thing I always find with people who argue deities exist because of some warm-and-fuzzy moral principle always hide the hidden premise they have to include to make their argument work. Namely, it is that their pet principle must and can only exist because of a deity. All they’re doing is trying to bootstrap their deity’s existence without having evidence for it.
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No one sacrifices themselves unless they benefit from it.
The theist who uses this argument is trying to stack the deck unfairly
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“The theist who uses this argument is trying to stack the deck unfairly” And all without offering a single shred of empirical evidence that their particular take on their particular deity is correct outside of their claim that it is. Theists first need to do this before making these types of asinine arguments.
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We will have to wait much longer for any evidence from them
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I get that, but what I’m saying is that the argument they’re using itself is flawed. They’re essentially saying if X exists, then deity exists. What they’re not doing is describing the relationship between X and deity.
So, in addition to stacking the deck unfairly, they’re not even stacking it for the right game.
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I get you now clearly.
The relationship hasn’t been demonstrated
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I agree siriusbizinus. The social aspect of humans, that can be seen in study chimps, makes perfect sense as the basis of morality. If we are to live together we need a shared set of common rules for living, this is largely what culture is.
The arguments about relative versus absolute morality have never been convincing to me.
Why does a dog show sympathy when its master is hurt? It is a social animal. The cat being a bit less social shows a bit less sympathy, but is not without some feelings of affection.
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Can’t the religionist argue that chimps exhibit such traits because they were made by the same god?
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Not even worth thinking about the first time.
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A waste of brain cells
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Another silly theist argument. Proof to me that deities don’t exist are theists. No self-respecting deity would want to be worshiped by them. Idjits.
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Any self respecting deity would kill itself instead of being worshipped by theists
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Is a better way to describe religious self sacrifice “noble suicide”? -KIA
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Ignoble suicide more like it
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So, did jesus die in the sin of self murder?
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Jesus, walked into his suicide; commonly called suicide by centurion
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Of course, if the nt story be believed. The true story is probably more like he died trying to foment revolution against Roman rule.
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Which we would then call assisted suicide :@
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Or just a failed Jewish jihadist.
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That too. Especially being a Jew, that makes sense
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So, why did we fall for the story for so long? Certainly doesn’t seem like either the nt or especially the ot god has anything authoritative to say about morals. Genocide and ritual human blood sacrifice anyone? So very not moral.
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We were fed the story when we were impressionable.
These oddities didn’t appear as such till the filters came off
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like Christian bale in Equilibrium after a few days without Prozium. starting to feel and think like a real person again. scary to think of the things I said, did and taught others to think, say and do in the name of the Christian Tetragrammaton.
see… my idea has already been done 😦
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Scary the things I believed to be the case!
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amazing movie by the way
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Is it suicide if you, as your own son, get crucified to “die” knowing full well you’re not really dead cause….well…cause you’re God, and will be back in 3 days after a stint in Heaven with 72 virgins? (Sorry, wrong religion, but you get the idea). There can be no sacrifice of life if that life is unable to die permanently. In the Jesus story, his “sacrifice” is a time-out, not a permanent end to life. If there was a “real” Jesus, who was crucified by Rome, his body hung on the cross until it was devoured by dogs, birds, and maggots. That’s how crucifixion worked. My guess is it left a strong impression on those Rome wanted to keep suppressed. I hear Donald Trump wants to use it on undocumented Hispanics in America. GO DONALD!!!!!! GO AMERICA!!!! 😀
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You definitely are right. It cant be a sacrifice if you know you are going to show up again in a few days
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I don’t quite understand your objection here? A soldier self-sacrifices for the good of his group.
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Really? There’s nothing in it for him or her?
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There is, the knowledge that he/she is supporting that thing which is “greater” than himself/herself.
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No, on the contrary he serves himself first. He wouldn’t do it any other way if it wasn’t for the self. The self is the master to be appeased even if it means loss of life
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Ah, understood. But aren’t we therefore dealing with here “enlightened self-interest”?
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It is never enlightened. It’s self interest plain and simple
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You entirely sure about this?
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Think of any example of self sacrifice, we can break it down to see where I could be mistaken
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My mother’s cousin, although there are many examples of self-sacrifice in war.
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I like this example.
When he did this, what was his training? Were there others watching?
Could you have done it without the same training?
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His training would have been minimal. The Australian Army had been in North Africa, then was withdrawn (stupidly, mind you) to help defend Singapore. Singapore fell 10 days after they arrived without even their guns. The Japanese rolled on south. Australia had to mobilise a new, inexperienced army and throw them into Papua to halt the Japanese. They did, on the Kokoda Track, but at a terrible, terrible price.
Bear in mind here, Darwin was being bombed, and Australia was preparing for invasion. The Americans weren’t even in the war at this stage. We were alone, we had no army, and our defensive plan was the Brisbane Line, which meant when (not if) the Japanese landed we were going to withdraw to Brisbane, ceding half the country, and fight a guerrilla war with whatever resources we could throw at them.
There was only one option: to stop them in Papua with this under-equipped rag-tag army. That is known today as the Kokoda Campaign.
As for the incident, as far as I’ve been told, a grenade was tossed into their foxhole along the kokoda Track. I’d imagine there were probably a 2 to 4 blokes in their with him. He threw himself on the grenade, absorbing the blast and saving their lives.
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This is interesting.
I will think about it
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“the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…or the one.”
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Succinct.
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and logical, eh? 😉
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Spock, then Kirk, in Wrath of Kahn. Much better fiction than the NT.
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I don’t know a situation when this has ever made a person sacrifice themselves
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I’m told one of my mother’s cousins threw himself on a grenade in PNG to save his mates.
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You and I would not do it in a hundred years.
For the soldier, his mates expect that of him. He expects it of himself.
There is a story, I don’t know if it is true, that two Japanese men made it safe out of the titanic but killed themselves later. They couldn’t live with themselves for being cowards. I wouldn’t do it
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instances of throwing oneself on a grenade?
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heroic but not self-sacrifice especially in the way people mean it.
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I’ll admit I’m confused. when I say throw oneself on a grenade, I mean exactly self-sacrifice.
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the dictionary definition of self sacrifice-the giving up of one’s own interests or wishes in order to help others or to advance a cause
and this I say is not possible. No one would do a thing if the master, the self, wasn’t satisfied.
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hmmm. I think your definition might be a more strict than most take it. helping doesn’t preclude still having some satisfaction, if only to know that others lived while you were harmed.
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After a few years of discussion on various issues, I have come to learn that sometimes a discussion goes on forever because definitions are not agreed on by all parties.
Whereas, diving on a grenade would lead to demise, it should be remembered we will go to great lengths, even dying, to satisfy the master
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I think that one can’t *not* get some sense of “satisfaction” or “benefit” from any action, so the idea of self-sacrifice as you would have it is essentially impossible if the word is used in regards to humans or any sapient (and perhaps even just sentient) being that exists. Is this what you were getting at?
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Yes, you get my meaning.
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why are such sacrifices necessary for god to forgive sin in the first place?
he’s god
they are his rules
it is his prerogative and apparently his desire to forgive
why then does he not just… forgive, rather than demanding a sacrifice to ‘prove’ our repentance or in his case his resolve to forgive in Christ?
riddle me this any Christian lurkers or trolls… why could the bible god, if he is the god of the universe as you claim, not just… forgive, no questions asked, no strings attached, no blood to spill?
and why would THAT be more immoral than what your religion proposes to be the remedy to offending an unchangeable, immortal and all merciful god?
time’s a tickin’, get to clickin’
-KIA
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I can’t speak for all Christians, or even any Christian, as in some quarters, there is doubt about my affiliation. But I can relay what many Christians in this part of the world tell me.
To a large extent we make God in our own image. If you believe that every transgression (sin) requires severe retribution, then that is the kind of God you get: angry and vindictive. If, on the other hand, you believe that transgressions can be made good by other means (restorative justice for example), then you’ll get a more gentle compassionate God. Many Christians I know would claim that the multiple “personalities” of God are due to the personalities of the various authors, and not that God is schizophrenic.
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Many Christians do say that it the fault of the authors rather than their god. Which begs the questions, why this god can’t make itself clear and why it allows this to happen? A god isn’t needed, just humans making stuff up 🙂
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Club, MICHAEL JÄHRLING posted this video to my blog today. It’s good. Very good, and flows from this comment
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I really like this guy. Hadn’t heard of ’em til this video, but I subscribed to his channel. Good stuff.
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Typically his videos are hilarious, but I like this more serious side of him.
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Yeah, funny stuff, but even his funny videos reflect good thought and arguments.
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it is very good. thanks! I think I may challenge Pastor Ashcraft to watch the series.
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Oh, naughty! 🙂
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My doubts began the same year as his, while I began Bible school. However, I couldn’t find the courage to leave Christianity until 2012.
In 1991 I couldn’t understand “God is love” when I saw so much violence in the Bible and in our modern day culture. I spent the next couple of decades explaining it all away.
When I left my faith it didn’t matter to me if god existed or not. All I cared about was getting away from the idea of him altogether.
I can’t believe all the times I HAD to ignore my brain while I was a Christian. It was constantly showing me the cruelty and flaws of God belief. I rarely benefited from it. I suffered greatly in it instead. I was bound to it like a victim with Stockholm Syndrome to her captor for nearly four decades.
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“I HAD to ignore my brain while I was a Christian”
That’s a terrific line!
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In a sense, I didn’t know it was even possible to think there is no god
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Interesting guy
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I agree a god isn’t needed, and a great many Christians will agree with that, while acknowledging that for them personally, the concept of God is helpful. We are all products of the culture/society we were raised in, and in my case I grew up in a society that has its roots in two cultures. The predominant one being of British and nominally Christian/agnostic/atheist background and the other rooted in Māori spirituality. I’ve also absorbed aspects of my wife’s background of Shintoism, Buddhism and Christianity. Sometimes these different world views are in agreement, while at other times they are in conflict. I don’t believe in a deity/deities/the supernatural, yet at times I find my world view influenced by aspects of each of these beliefs as if they are real. I often find myself using concepts of God, gods, spiritual guardians and Life Force (mauri in Māori spirituality and Kami in Shintoism) while at the same time recognising that they are human constructs. From my perspective, your question of why this god can’t make itself clear and why it allows this to happen is meaningless as such a god doesn’t exist.
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yep, and that’s the point. no reason to think a god or gods exists at all. I am curious, Barry. what do you mean exactly when you cay that you use the concepts, but are sure that they are human constructs?
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I might have expected you to ask such a difficult question 🙂
Not sure if I can answer it adequately.Perhaps the best I can do is say it’s similar to how some people become almost personally involved in the life of a character in a well written book or film. When dealing with environmental issues the concept of mauri (life force) helps me see issues in a way other than looking at it from the Western (and Christian) attitude of a resource to be exploited.
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a very good answer.
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Barry, more than 90% of the Christians I know would say you are not a true christian. I think you grew up and live in a very liberal society where religion doesn’t play a big role in people’s lives
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I don’t claim to be a true Christian, or even a Christian. I guess in some aspects our society is kind of liberal, while in other respects we are quite conservative. Religion doesn’t play a big role in our lives today- it has played a bigger role in the past, but more significantly churches have never had much influence on social attitudes here.
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Most of my countrymen and women claim to be christian of some brand. If some could have their way, the bible would replace the constitution
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I think that’s because large areas of east Africa were “Christianised” by evangelicals and fundamentalists, mostly from the USA. I only have to compare the beliefs and practices of Kenyan Quakers and Quakers of Aotearoa New Zealand and wonder what they have in common apart from a name.
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I think the only thing they share is a name
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Humans making stuff up as they go along
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Thank you for your perspective. From a biblical christian perspective, it is all about the Sacrifice and blood. So really, my query was more towards the more orthodox biblical christian perspective. I do appreciate the ‘god in our own image’ comment as I think that is more accurate as to why we have god/gods in the first place. It seems we are both in a kind of transition, yes?
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A transition? In the sense that nothing stands still for long, I guess it’s true (See my reply to clubschadenfreude above. I live in a society where Biblical Christians are regarded with some suspicion, and have little influence on the community at large.
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Barry some of the the solutions those around have come up with are quite interesting if not ingenious
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Those questions you pose want answers and no one, so far as I can tell, has given a satisfactory response
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Some have tried. But I think it comes down to “didn’t want to do it that way. It’s a mystery”
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Which is a non answer, I think.
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Yuppers. I concur
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Question (sorry if this has already been posed and answered): didn’t he do it cuz he was told to? Because there was a reward at the end? Not entirely selfless is it?
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It’s a question you can ask over again.
For a long time, religionists have cited him as an example of self sacrifice.
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[…] could be part of the reason some debates have gone on for decades or millennia. In my previous post, I […]
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And the question I wish to pose is how such conscientious self sacrifice can be defended in humanist terms as rational or reasonable act?
My response to the author would be: Who claimed it was? Self-sacrifice is an emotional response. Even John 3:16 says Jesus sacrificial death was an act of love.
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Exactly, no one has claimed it was.
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