A foolish person is ‘quick’ to condemn what they do not understand. A wise person is ‘slow’ to condemn what they do understand
Martino, Joseph P
I think the above quote is relevant as a response to this post. I can only say the author has condemned atheism and atheists due to their own lack of understanding. There is no logical argument that leads from having a conscience to the existence of god[s]. As I have said before, appealing to authority, or perceived authority to make claims is fallacious. In this case reference is made to C.S Lewis as if he was/ is the poster boy for atheists. That should be left to Jean Messlier.
The following advice is given to atheists encountering a godcultist for the first time
- Don’t ask for evidence; remember the godcultist relies on faith for their claims. You may wait a lifetime and there will still be no evidence.
- Don’t ask them about the problem of evil; the godcultist believes their god is good regardless of evidence to the contrary
- there are no such thing as Christians; they, almost all of them, worship money, fame and sex
- be sarcastic; this is the easiest way to get them to leave you alone. Satire could be considered too
- your only authority is me; you can’t rely on some book
I hope you will look for every opportunity not to bother godcultists but to improve the world around you.
Random thoughts 
Be a good person and improve the world and say nothing.
Then snicker when a godcultist who is your neighbor somehow finds out you are an atheist and goes into a hissy fit. 😉
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Yes, that’s the way to do it
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Why not be open about being an atheist? You never know, but by being that good person and neighbour you might gain a another deconvertee.
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Because makagutu said, “not to bother the godcultists.” lol
Besides I’ve got one on each side of me, several across from me and many all up and down the block. 😦
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I guess I’m fortunate that such people are relatively rare in Aotearoa New Zealand. I haven’t a clue if any of my neighbours are religious. It’s not something one discusses.
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That’s just as it should be. 🙂
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I see Dax hides his proselytizing behind a curtain of kindness and righteousness. *sigh*
It’s almost easter here, and I have about 4 doorbell rings per day preaching the resurrected christ. You know why I get irritated and hostile at christians? Because they simply will not let me BE; they have to invade my space and my property and disturb me 20+ times a week. Take a hint christians: stop proselytizing to atheists…it’s UNWELCOME. Go babble your nonsense to each other while you shout amen and quote from the Ultimate Book of Nonsense.
After all I’m busy cooking up drugs in my kitchen, having sex with everything that walks the earth (including cows), and corrupting children with my doctrine of immortality. It’s a tough job but somebody has to help satan, or the christians would have nothing to do.
Thanks mak, for letting me get that off my chest. 😀
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20+ times a week? Good grief! We get about one visit a year from the seventh day Adventists and once every few years I’ll invite them in for a chat. They’re usually young and seem to have little understanding of other denominations and even less I’d other religions. I like to feel I have widened their knowledge, even if just a little. Other than them, we don’t get any religious salespeople.
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Yep, 20+ doorbell rings a week around Xmas and easter is the norm…the rest of the year I’d say I get about 5-10 doorbell rings a week. Plus they throw “church festivals” in the public park right behind my house and proselytize to all the kids at the playground, and they blast their gospel songs over a f’ing LOUDSPEAKER for hours at a time in the park. You cannot believe the religious nonsense that goes on in america. I have three churches within three blocks of my house.
I’m thinking of going ’round the neighborhood and “preaching” atheism to my religious neighbors 20 times a week to give them a taste of their own medicine.
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That should be described as religious terrorism.
You could consider having a sign made, like busy we are eating babies, come next time :-). They may give you a break for some time
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I actually did leave a sign on my door last year saying “no proselytizing allowed.” It didn’t stop them…perhaps they didn’t know what the world proselytizing meant. I think your idea of saying I’m baking babies might work better!
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Don’t use big words, will you? I can think of a number of notices to show any who comes to my door that will ensure I don’t get any such visits
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Violet, perhaps you should ask your earnest visitors to provide some evidence that the creator of the universe speaks through them. Ask them to provide some insight from ‘God’ about yourself that you know they could not have learnt other than through divine revelation.
I have found that Christians generally fall into two camps, 1) the good folk: those who have to ask you questions to gain information (because ‘God’ is not telling them anything), and 2) the scary folk: those who claim to have supernatural insight, but the reality of what they say proves otherwise.
If the folk you have been engaging with on this blog had even an inkling of the reality of your story then they would know that if their ‘God’ exists it was that ‘God’ that abandoned you, not the other way around. No other explanation would accord with the reality of your story if ‘God’ really did exist.
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Thank you, Peter. ❤
I do so love that some christian denominations give those "prophetic words" over people…we did not have that in my denomination. I feel cheated to have missed out on such a thing.
Dax, Jason…any prophetic words/supernatural insight for any of us? Now THAT would be an interesting conversation.
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Violet, I had such words spoken to me. Aside from the general stuff, every specific word proved wrong.
One person in the church was told he would be an evangelist, last he heard he was in prison for burning down someone’s house.
A couple were told how their marriage would be blessed. Shortly thereafter they split, never to reconnect.
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god works in mysterious ways. that guy will find the true god in prison. the second will get a better partner, each of them.
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You need some Gorgoroth for those gospel fests.
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Maybe you need to invite some of those nice Satanic Church people to have an event in your park.
The park stuff would bug me. For someone who lives in a big city, I really love peace and quiet.
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The park stuff makes me insane…especially since they’re obviously targeting children who play there, including my own young son. Whenever I ask them to stop they say, “it’s a public place and we’re free to preach” (and by law they are.) If I knew any satanists I’d bring them here pronto…that would make a fine ruckus! I’ll have to keep my eye out for such possibilities. What a great idea! 😀
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There are great solutions available in this comment section
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This is for your comment below about the sign –
How about, “Thank-you, I’ve tried Jesus, and I’m just not partial.”
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I don’t get any proselyting. I used to bump into JWs but not anymore and the Mormons who are here seem to be contented with their numbers or they have.
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You shouldn’t wait for a post like this to vent. Vent any time on any post my friend.
Dax talks about things he doesn’t understand and hopes to be taken seriously
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I am ok if you don’t take me seriously. I would like for you to but I have plenty who will engage me. If it’s not you then oh well. Your choice
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Dax, Do you believe god has unconditional love and that god is all loving? Please read the definitions of unconditional and love. Please keep in mind that this applies to people who believe, people who don’t and those who don’t know. If applying the pure definitions and there was a kingdom, I’d expect as an agnostic or athiest, the answer to be, “enter into heaven, my child…” Do you agree? The bible and how it is written doesn’t seem to support this.
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I think Dax has decided he is not going to answer us. His PhD is such a big thing for him he can’t have conversation with those without unless you are in his church making offerings
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And in follow up…do those people who radically kill for their god gain easier admittance than one who doesn’t believe and never sheds the drop of blood of another? Please dont fall behind the mental illness line…these people believed in god…and acted on that behalf..and to go a step further…god allowed it.
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Straight away to heaven. I think Peter meets them at the pearly gates😀
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I cannot imagine people knocking on my door.(gate)
I do recall a while back a group of three Jehovah Witlesses came to the gate and the dogs went Ape Shit.
They were asked politely to leave else the wife threatened to set The Ark on Them.
The ran ….
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Did they ever return?
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No. Our drive way is quite steep and I suspect the walk up and the sight of my dogs … or me at the gate is enough to deter any bible thumper. 😉
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With you dressed only in smiles, I can understand why they would think twice about approaching the Ark spot
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Oh, I wear takkies ( trainers) as well. And a hat, if it’s sunny.
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Ark you have a couple of big dogs as I recall.
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Indeed!
Woof!
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OOOOOH – shake and tremble —
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Or could it be that is who I an? I grew up in what was considered a cult and was judged constantly. I don’t want to do the same to others. I want to engage in dialogue with those different from me. If I believe this do truth why would I not Share it? I make no false pretense here
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I’ll tell you what’s wrong with it. Your post was specifically about proselytizing to atheists. Atheists DO NOT WANT to hear it. Do you understand? We’re atheists! Many of us were even former believers and we know what you’re selling. Do you want me assaulting you with my atheism at every corner? I think not. So stop assaulting non-believers with your beliefs; people who are genuinely “nice and kind” don’t do that!
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Understand Violet. I put it on my site. I didn’t shove to down your throat. I was talking to other Christians on how they respond. I am a pastor. I lead Christians. It’s what I do. Sorry to offend. Honestly not my desire. Why do you not believe if you don’t mind me asking?
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Here’s another problem Dax…christianity is all about evangelizing and winning wayward souls to your deity. Of course you try to do it with the love of god, but if that doesn’t work, then you use threats of hell. It is simply impossible for christians to leave people of other beliefs or non-belief alone. Why don’t you just pastor to your flock? Why teach your flock to proselytize to atheists? Because god calls you to save the world, and it’s a requirement for you to win souls for jesus. Surely you can see how that’s annoying as fu*k to everyone who doesn’t see things your way. If you want to respect atheists, and you want atheists to respect you, don’t proselytize. Unless of course, you want to proselytize about the One True God, Allah, as the little guy with the lightening bolt suggests below. 🙂
PS I am not up for discussing the reasons why I left the cult of christianity.
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Violet, take 2 Ugarit gel caps and eat an apple. You, and Allah, will be glad ya’ did.
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Excellent suggestion, Inspired…I’m sure Allah will relieve me of my irritation about a certain false deity named Don’t You Dare Eat That Apple I Put Next To You (and if you do, just blame it all on the woman).
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Da Buddha only wants you to find your own way to nirvana. No one can you teach you. Maybe the godcultists could borrow a leaf from them
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If only!
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Interesting that you won’t talk about it. If it means so little to you why not tell me. My guess is you have been hurt. The jury convicted is full of messed up people. I am one of them. But I don’t put my faith in people. Sure we evangelize. If we really believe this message saves shouldn’t we?!?! Be cruel not to do it
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“If we really believe this message saves shouldn’t we?!?! Be cruel not to do it.”
I see my last three comments have been wasted on you.
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I read them but how could I not share. I don’t force it down your throat. My blog post was actually encouraging Christians to not force it down your throat
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Dax, you expect me to respond seriously to christians? The very first sentence of your blog post reads: “The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.” Psalm 14:1
No. Just no.
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Proselytizing is OK in my book as long as the One, True Religion, Islam, is what’s being preached. Here’s how I know this is true: from the Koran: 3:85: “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.” Thanks for your time, and remember, Hell awaits all those who disbelieve in Islam. $Amen$
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I like the christian book; it teaches you not to boil your goat in its blood or something, smash babies on rocks and says specifically that bastards don’t go to heaven, they are unwelcome
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Of course they’re unwelcome, they’re BASTARDS!!!
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Thank you for clearing that up Inspired! 😀
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That’s what I’m here for.
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I always liked how in the book The Moonstone one of the characters quote Robinson Caruso the way some people quote the Bible.
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Thank you.
You know one thinks some of these things should be obvious
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You already judged that I am angry? Or wasn’t that passing judgement on one you don’t know?
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Your words betray you. You are angry. Sarcastic, flippant, and dismissive. That is anger
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Sarcastic, that very much? Angry and dismissive only when dealing with idiots. I have responded to you politely all through, if you see anger, you have a problem
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You have gotten nicer. When you are called dun and idiot hard to see that as polite
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Dumb I mesnt
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“Interesting that you won’t talk about it. If it means so little to you why not tell me.”
@Violet – this was Doctor Dax’s same approach to Neuronotes on Ark’s blog yesterday – by getting you to talk about it, it allows him to look for a place in your story to sink a hook, and then he tries to reel you in. If hr really just wants conversation, offer to discuss that beautiful flower garden you planted last summer, or the history of Pookey – why does the conversation have to be about religion?
Oh, and word of caution, he gets really miffed if you don’t acknowledge the fact that he has a doctorate (in ‘Divinity‘! My mom used to make a great divinity, it was delicious – just a touch of butter!) and he’s smarter than the average bear (except maybe Pookey).
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You forgot to add with special emphasis on fasting
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There was no sarcasm or anger in my post.
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Four doorbell rings a day? Ouch. I haven’t had anyone try to ring my bell for Jesus in about twenty-five years or so. In fact, I can count all the instances on one, maybe two, hands.
After reading ladysighs’ comment, I looked up on the internet to see how religious my region is and, although less religious than the U.S. overall, it turned out to be far more religious than I thought. However, number one is Catholicism and number two is Judaism. Catholics don’t proselytize as much as Protestants do and Jews don’t at all. So, although there are more nominally religious people around me than I thought, they pretty much keep to themselves – unless I want to go to the JCC and learn to make a traditional Passover dinner.
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My neighborhood is especially prone to preachers because our subdivision is composed of 99% young families. The proselytizers want not only to capture the adults but to get the children in young. While the three churches next to me are evangelical and cause the most problems, preachers come from all over the city to hit up our subdivision. It’s sickening. My parents, who live in an elderly subdivision, get much less doorbell ringing than I do (mom says they come by only once a week).
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I took a look at the demographics of my county and I just put up a post.
By the way, why did you take down your blog? (No need to answer if it’s private.)
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I had no choice – in fact, Mak started, his based at first on what he’d read on mine (thank goodness he dropped that idea and developed his own style – he makes a better Mak than he does an arch), but the company I leased it from for years suddenly decided to change its format. They offered me WordPress instead, but if anyone knows me at all, they know that I hate the WP format – I actually signed up for a WP account a few months before I discovered WebSite Palace (the company I ultimately went with), under the name, ‘archaeopteryx,’ but after going with WebSite Palace, I had, over time, forgotten my WP password, so when I went to comment on WP blogs, such as Mak’s, I tried logging in to comment, and found I couldn’t, due to the password problem, so I had to create an entirely new account as ‘archaeopteryx1,’ because, as WP told me, “The name archaeopteryx is already taken.” Yes, by ME!
ANYway, I have all of my files from my original website backed up, and last year, was in search of a new company with a format and price I could live with, and had the search narrowed down to a handful of companies, when my computer died and I lost all of the companies’ sites that I had bookmarked. Since then, I’ve just been too busy (and too lazy) to start all over from scratch.
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You see arch was already taken so I had just to be me
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Interesting post…I left my comment over at your place!
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GIRL! You owe me an email! LONG overdue!
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Keep your britches on dude! My hands are are causing me major problems so I have to be careful how much I type. I haven’t forgotten you. 🙂
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First of all, SnotBox, I have FAR more fun with my britches off, than I ever otherwise do.
Secondly, I’ve been following your many comments on both Mak’s and Nan’s blogs, and it wouldn’t take HALF that much typing to drop me a note, so I don’t want to hear it!
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Hey now…don’t you snotbox me…I was pulled into commenting so much here because of the delightful Dax and Jason (hear me making kissy sounds at them?). Usually I pick and choose what I comment on very carefully to save my hands, but Mak tends to find the craziest nut jobs on the planet, which I find humorous as hell. So: it’s not my fault!
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Just sucked you right in, did they? Just a big, giant, ‘WHOOSH‘ and poor little Violet was whisked down the vacuum tube and dumped onto this site, which she was unable to leave until she had completed her mandatory quota of comments —
Sounds reasonable.
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I would ask, where were you when I was a kid and needed some BS story to tell my mom about where I was or what I was doing, but you’d just say, “Not born yet,,” and I would walk away with my head down, so I’ll just file that question away as a bad idea.
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It’s completely reasonable! So quit yer bitchin’, you old, prehistoric bird. 🙂
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Life is hard enough as it is, it would be bad for me to make it look serious all the time
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Maybe you should start giving them work every time they show up. Like cleaning the carpet or something
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As a disabled woman I could sure use the help, but you know they wouldn’t work in silence. They’d have to run their pie holes the entire time about jeebus saving the world and sinners going to hell, and I might be driven to violence. So in the interest of keeping myself out of jail, I shall pass on this suggestion. 😉
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I used to have Jehova’s Witnesses come to my door – the rural area in which I live is largely peopled by Hispanics, whose long history of adherence to Catholicism has left them susceptible to superstitions of all sorts – but once I began explaining, in my best school-teacher mode, how Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible, they never came back.
My original story of answering the door naked with a can of beer in my hand, may have been a slight exaggeration.
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I don’t think I heard that story. I had a friend who did something like that, but it wasn’t quite intentional. He was getting out of the shower and was angry. He didn’t have beer.
I remember the time I opened the door to some Mormons with a distinctly hoochie mama look. I was visiting my sister and I did some laundry. Her teeny-tiny roommate loaned me a t-shirt and some shorts while I washed my own. She thought we were the same size. Well, almost. It didn’t occur to me until I opened the door and saw their faces.
Nice boys. Perhaps I should have invited them in. 😉
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That might have only encouraged them to come back, again and again.
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Arch tells me Mormons can help with housework. There is a Mormon church not so far from where I live, maybe I should find out
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I think they must have spread word that you ask many questions
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Oh Arch, I loved that story of you answering the door, naked with a beer, and scratching your crotch! I mean discussing the pentateuch might be a more reasonable approach but it’s not nearly as fun.
I have drawn upside down crosses in lipstick on my forehead when answering the door to religious crazies. None of them have ever said anything about it, but it did keep them from lingering too long. These days I’m so angry I usually just slam the door so hard it nearly breaks the hinges…you think they’d get the point, but they just keep coming.
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Let NeuroNuts tell you sometime how SHE answered the door!
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I have only met JWs on the street or at a friend’s house. They have never showed up at my place. Katlicks tend to not have a door to door policy of getting followers. Maybe they are content
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Well, I wouldn’t say content. We did feel the need to occasionally spread the word of god, but we did it with volunteer work or mission work. People say, “oh it’s so nice you do volunteer work,” but the people we were helping had to listen to us go on and on about god and were then pressured to come to bible studies and masses…so it’s not as altruistic as one might think. I’ve never known a catholic to go door to door, which is at least something good about them (but that’s pretty much it). Mostly we just sat smugly in our pews pondering how everyone else was going to hell…of course WE would be raptured as the “elect.”
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Catholics are content to just wait for you to join them.
And in those pews, I guess the person sitting next to you would be raptured for one reason or another
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When I first moved to New York, I lived near the JW’s big headquarters:
So, the few proselytizers I’d get were almost always JWs.
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Mak, that post only confirms my belief that fundamentalists worship the Bible first and everything else, including their understanding of God, comes second from their literal interpretation of it.
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You have put it well.
I think apart from their bibles, they know little else
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What happened in your past to make you hate the idea of God? There is almost always a connection. Your points are flippant and don’t enter into a healthy dialogue with a Christian. Maybe you don’t want to dialogue as you said. Why? Do you fear there might be truth in it. Of course you could never say yes to that out loud. I don’t want to talk you into believing in God because I know that I cannot. I would ask this as a hypothetical… What if you are wrong and God does exist?
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I have a policy to not engage with godcultists. Most of you are dumb as soup, but I will indulge you this one time
1. I don’t hate god. I was brought up in a religious household. The best thing that happened to me was to realize I had believed a lie. Nothing bad happened. Why did you become a believer or why are you still a believer? Your girlfriend discovered you watching porn and you took up belief to pretend you changed but still watch porn on your phone when she isn’t around?
2. I had no intention of entering into a dialogue with Christcultists. You all, especially those who run blogs, are so ignorant talking to you feels is worse than talking to hens
3. You are free to talk me to believing in your god but you will have to tell me what god is, why I should believe.
4. Too bad for god. S/h/it will have a lot to answer for.
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Yes you don’t have any lent up anger or issues at all. Very objective:) You attack very quickly. You assume I am dumb. Faith is often taken to be intellectual suicide. I can see why you think that. How can you trust in a God you cannot see or does not show Himself easily. I think you like to be in control a little too much. You say you don’t engage but you make the rules. You respond to mine and then you shut me down in attempt to dialogue. There is fear there. Wonder what the source is?
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I guess you have done some basic psychology? Did they teach you projection?
You could have some fears, I don’t. Don’t project your own fears onto me now, will you?
I haven’t stopped you from writing any number of comments on this post. I just don’t want to talk to you, you sure know I can at least be allowed to decide who to talk to.
It’s not the world you are engaging at the moment and if your post is anything to go by, in my estimation, the author could only be dumb. You are ignorant of atheism. You tell your audience to forego reason and encourage them to go out and disturb the peace of others preaching nonsense.
Go on and comment away, you are not about to be censored.
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I will say that I also allowed your comment/blog to be posted on mine. I don’t understand atheists. Help me too. I want to understand because it is so different from my approach to things. I don’t hate reason. I am a life long student. Science is not my enemy. I do have fears. Many of them. I assume we all do. I fear death even as a believer. I can admit that. I don’t desire to project on you. I am not trying to implement any psychology. I am just trying to understand and be undertsood
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If that were the case, you should really have said so in your post. You can’t claim you want to be understood while you have already cast aspersions at the people you would like to know. And your audience join you in the choir and you are so much ok with it.
Where I went to school that’s not how things are done
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The point of my post was not to argue and be rude when sharing. To trust God and not honk you can talk anyone into belief inGod
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Well, maybe next time you want to write about atheists and you are not sure, share it with one of your atheist friends first.
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That is a fair request
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And as I said before I wont try and talk you into believing in God. Can you convince someone into falling in love? God is to be experienced not to be dissected. I am ok with whatever you do. Your soul is not on me. But I do know what God has done for me. I have my dock trade degree and have attended schools like Duke University. In the worlds estimation I don’t think I would be classified as dumb. Calling me dumb is a defense mechanism. You have no basis.
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Which god are you referring to, please?
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I am referring to Yahweh. Christian. I believe He is the only true God
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Yahweh was a Canaanite deity, part of a pantheon and was adopted by a group of Bronze Age goat herders. This the god you worship?
How strange.
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Some of that is true
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And which part do you think is not true?
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He led his people to the land of Canaan but he was not a Canaanite deity.
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Oh, yes he was, my friend. Are you not aware of the Ugarit tablets?
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I am and I know what you refer too. And I believe e it refers to Baal and El and not Yahweh
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What you believe and what the tablets reveal are two entirely different things.
But, I’ll play.
Please produce the evidence you have that clearly indicates that the god you genuflect to is not featured in the Ugarit tablets.
And because I have discussed such matters with many apologists I feel I must emphasize: Evidence.
I hope you understand the term?
Thanks.
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Shouldn’t you too dice the evidence that it is? I don’t see the name Yahweh mention in the Ugarittic text. El is the Hebrew name for God but is generic. My doctorate is in the biblical languages. I feel confident as to what I say here.
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Let me first get some idea of where you are coming from and how much your religious beliefs affect your judgement.
Do you accept that the Pentateuch is historical fiction, yes or no?
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I believe the first five books to be true.
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Then you are deserving of only one epithet.
Dickhead.
Oh, and on the back of your assertion that the Pentateuch is true, your doctorate is worth Jack Shit.
Bye, bye
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Very sound and scholarly argument. I am much more enlightened now
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It’s the best I got. And it’s worked really great so far. Consider yourself honoured.
Only special people get such a title.
Hey, I just realised we can go one better!
Doctor Dickhead!
🙂
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You don’t expect to be taken seriously for saying something like that. You imply you believe snakes talk, that you are a result of incest, and so many other silly and absurd things. Unless you meant that as a jest
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I actually do believe them. It is raw and honest and snake talking was before the fall. I do believe it and so am actually educated:) can you he believe that:)
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I am going to like this conversation.
Let me make some tea, I know this could go on for long
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I’m taking 2 Ugarit liquid gel caps and settling in for the show.
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Our stone god ended the show prematurely. We would have been entertained quite a bit
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I know. I want a refund.
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I apologize for typing errors/ I am texting while driving on a trip:) not good
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I prefer the Ugarit liquid gels myself. They’re easier to swallow.
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Really?
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How did you arrive at the conclusion this is the true god? How also did you know that what you believe in is god? I am asking to help other atheists and Muslims who come here
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Thanks for mentioning Muslims. There may be hope for you yet, my son.
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That’s what she said
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Makagutu wound you consider doing a blog post with me where you and I come up with questions and answer them? I would want it to be respective on both sides. I would give my view and you give yours. It would be helpful for people to see side by side. What do you think?
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Why would I do something like that? You already resolved I am angry, flippant, dismissive, fearful? But having said that, my view on so many things can be found on this blog
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I trust you if you said we could do it respectfully. Plus neither of us have to publish it if we don’t feel comfortable with it. I would like to hear your thoughts on veritable things and let those who follow me see it
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It’s ok if you rather not
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I don’t have many followers. Only 250 read my post that you site. So I would not brig a wide audience but I would think it beneficial to those who did read to hear both our views side by skde
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Hey Arch, where are you? The word “dickhead” is being thrown around…isn’t that your cue? 😉
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Forgive me Makagutu, for I have sinned.
I know you don’t approve of talking with godcultists, but I… I just couldn’t help myself. As you say, they use such stupid stupid arguments and I thought, prideful that I am, that if I could just show them their stupidity, they might see the light and turn from their destructive godcultist ways.
They use twisted definitions of ‘atheist’. I give them a correct one, but they will not listen.
They accuse atheists of being angry at their god. I inform them we are actually angry with having to put up with godcultists, but they will not listen.
They say that faith is a virtue. I point out that with enough faith, one can believe dangerous, contradictory, and demonstrably false things, but they will not listen.
The worst part is, in spite of recognizing your wisdom in this matter, I feel I will probably sin in this manner again and again. Damn TOOAIN, but I can’t help but hope!
Praise be to Makagutu and his great teachings,
$Amen$
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You have made my evening mate. You don’t need any penance for another decade 🙂
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Oh yeah – he threw Pascal’s Wager out over there too – he seems to have a standardized approach.
How about this, Doctor Dax – Mak just hates the idea of ignorance in the Age of Reason –? The idea of basing one’s life on the words of the mostly anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze and Iron Age men who wrote the Bible is an absurd way to live.
Let’s take a quick look at the history of his entire continent:
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Who is Mak and why should I care?
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I assumed you knew who he was, since you asked him why he hated god.
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For a smart person with a doctorate, Dax, I’m beginning to wonder about you —
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Maybe he means Mak has no PhD why should he care?
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Oh the other site. Yes. He is the one who wrote the blog response to mine. Got you
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Yes, that other site. Greet him for me
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I am also trying to find out who Mak is. Then I will know why you should care
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He’s a guy who drives a truck, a “Mak” truck. Get it? A “Mak” truck?
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Careful – he’s a Doctor – a SMART Doctor —
Doctors aren’t expected to do mundane things like figure out who on this board might be nick-named ‘Mak”! Their time is reserved for the IMPORTANT philosophical things in life, like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Personally – and I’m no Doctor – I’d say that that depends on whether they are White angels or Black angels – White angels can’t dance (they just do the Robot, no matter HOW out of style it is!).
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You didn’t mention writing a paper on fasting
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I have seen such trucks. You didn’t have to say I drive trucks, I maybe waylaid
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Is this one of those profound, sound-of-one-hand-clapping, things? Too much Buddhism lately?
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No no, we are helping Dax find Mak😀
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I thought with a doctorate, pascal’s wager would be his last resort
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I’ve doctorate in Who. And, I’m still short.
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You could have a doctorate in ministry and specialise in fasting
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I’d rather specialize in slowing.
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Do you mean swallowing 🙈 or I am becoming blind
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That’s what she said.
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I was worried I was going blind
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I considered using that yesterday when Dax commented, “Arch, you’re a bit cocky.”
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Would of been perfect.
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There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is His Prophet. I do hope this discussion is in reference to the One, True, Real God, Allah, and not some hocus pocus silly christian folk tale. If you’re going to talk God, you must talk about Allah. To do otherwise is to condemn your soul to Hell for all eternity. Use the fear this knowledge brings you to right yourselves and your attitudes toward Allah, or suffer the consequences. The atheist and the christian share one thing in common: both will burn in Hell for denying the existence of the True God.
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There is no god but the golden boot. And ass kickers are the real and true prophets.
All you Muslims, Christians and atheists are going to hell
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Indeed. $Amen$ to the Golden Boot worshipers, for they shall inherit the shoes. Sad how many delude themselves with christianity. Any reasonable person of faith can see there’s only one God, and Jesus ain’t it.
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Any reasonable person of faith it takes a lot of searching to find such persons
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I’m such a person because I believe in the REAL God, Allah, and the REAL religion, Islam. I also believe in the Golden Boot, but, that’s a story for another day. Main message here is, don’t be an atheist or a believer in false gods. i.e., a christian. Be cool. Be real. Be saved. be a Muslim.
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All the best my Muslim friend. Allah will reward with you 72 virgins. I hear however all young ones are taken. You will have to make do with 300yr old virgins
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Wow, there has definitely been a lot going on here. I was hoping to offer some clarity in regards to the initial comment that makagutu posted. I am by no means upset nor do I desire to pick a fight, but I think there are some inconsistencies that deserved to be clarified from the Christian worldview perspective. So, please allow me to share.
1. Evidence. I realize that some Christians say that we should just take things by faith which implies fideism, but that is not true. My faith is not a blind faith. In fact, I would say that our faith is built upon reason and evidence. For example, the Cosmological argument, the Kalam argument, Fine-Tuning argument, Moral argument, and the resurrection of Jesus all give iron-clad evidence to the existence of a diving being that the Christian God is in fact God. I would also point out, that the above arguments which give evidence to the existence of God are just a few. I encourage those who are involved to check these arguments out. One source that is extremely helpful is http://www.reasonablefaith.org/
2. The problem of evil. The problem of evil is certainly a problem. I think this is the main reason people abandon faith or never choose to study theism. I admit that evil and suffering is hard for anyone to try and explain. I would say that the atheist has the hardest time explaining it. According to the atheist worldview there are no morals, no values, and no purpose in life whatsoever. So, this is a problem because everyone believes in “good” or “evil.” In fact no one can live in any other way. An atheist might say, “good and evil are illusions.” And I would say, then why does the atheist live by them? Why is it that the atheist cannot live consistent to their set of beliefs. They say there is no good or evil, but they cannot live their life consistent with their beliefs, therefore their beliefs are false. Maybe an illustration might help. If an atheist’s family member is raped and murdered, they will surely demand justice. But why? If the logical conclusion to their worldview is that there are no moral values and duties, the atheist really should not demand justice at all.
Now, if an atheist concedes that there are moral values (good and evil) and duties (right and wrong) then what ground do they base those values and duties in? Experience tells us that objective moral values and duties are a reality. Some things are really wrong and right. Some things are worthy of praise. If there are things that are really wrong despite my opinion, then where does that law come from? If truth is relative (which is a contradiction of terms) then who am I to say someone “ought” to do anything? I wouldn’t be able to. But truth is not relative and objective moral values and duties do exist. I “ought” to really do good and not evil. Who puts that obligation over me? I would say that objective laws come from a moral Law Giver, a.k.a. God.
Now that I’ve established the reality of objective moral values and duties, allow me to answer the problem of evil. The problem goes something like this: Since God and evil exist at the same time then God cannot exist. The atheist usually claims:
1 – An all loving, all powerful God exists.
2 – Suffering exists.
3 – Therefore God cannot exist.
But there are hidden assumptions with this argument:
1- if God is all powerful, He can create any world He wants.
2- if God is all loving he would prefer a world without suffering.
Look at the first one. Is it necessarily true that God can create any world he wants? It is not possible if he creates people with freedom of the will. It is like God making a round square or a married bachelor. Those are logically impossible and so is “making” a free creature do something. Since it’s possible that people have free will, it means that God cannot create any world he wants. Further, someone might say, well why did he create if he knew evil would be in the world? Because he desires a real, authentic love relationship with people. True love does not exists apart from freedom to choose. And with the possibility of true love there is also a possibility of pain. If you want to get rid of suffering, then you would have to get rid of humans and be robots.
Now onto the second hidden assumption, if God is all loving he would prefer a world without suffering. Given that freedom of the will is possible, why would God want a world full of robots with no freedom? Especially if he desires a true love relationship? It seems logical that it is possible that God gives humans freedom for the purpose of love and prefers that over making robots. And when you hug your kids or spouse, you are glad he did.
3 – Christians. Apparently, your definition of Christian is flawed. No Christian claims perfection. We all sin, including me. However, that is what makes the gospel of Jesus Christ beautiful.
4 – This point you made is ad hominem, which is what I have seen most people do in this blog. There doesn’t seem to be a true desire to discuss truth. I wish that was not the case. It seems to me that if eternal life is possible then a person should spend every waking moment to know truth. Ad hominem attacks never help anyone but cause people to argue and ignore the seeking of truth. What a travesty if they are wrong only because they never examined the evidence because of a hard heart.
5 – If people cannot rely on a book, then what do you rely on? I am sure you did not come up with your set of beliefs on your own. The issue is, are your beliefs true and justifiable by evidence? I say that they are not. Atheism cannot successfully explain the beginning of the universe, the origin of man, the human mind, the fine-tuning of the universe, moral values and duties, the resurrection of Jesus, or the universal law of logic. Speaking of logic, have you wondered why every human being reasons the same way? Why is there a law of non-contradiction that governs your mind as you read this? Why is there a law of excluded middle? Where did that law come from? Naturalism cannot explain that. You said that the only authority is you. But according to your worldview, truth is relative, so why should I believe anything you say? That claim according to your worldview is self refuting. That is another example of how you cannot follow your own worldview.
Finally, your last statement said we should improve the world. Why? According to the atheist worldview, there is no purpose, no values, no morals, and no reason. Then improving the world means nothing. In fact, according to your worldview, this conversation means nothing. But, although an atheist will agree that all of this means nothing, they cannot live that way. You live in a constant state of self-delusion. You will provide for your families, demand justice, want love, expect a fair grade or a fair wage. My question is why? If you don’t believe it is real, then why can’t you live that way? You can’t.
So, I have addressed each point in an effort to provide clarity from the Christian perspective and refute some of the claims in this initial post. If anyone would like to take issue with my claims and evidence, please let us discuss the evidence and not attack one another. I will be happy to have a good discussion about the evidence that I have shared for the Christian faith. Thank you.
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Jason,
are you the author of the OP? Why should you be upset?
1. On evidence; the author wrote
where is the misrepresentation? Do you read anything else other than the bible. You realize one that the arguments you list such as Kalam, Fine Tuning have all been refuted and they are not evidence. They are arguments, wordplay. There is no evidence for a wonder working, virgin born preacher who was later hang on a tree.
2. On the problem of evil
Are you an atheist? Do you know atheism is not a worldview but a lack of belief in deities. I am tired of explaining to nincompoops that good or bad are judgments, that they have no existence of their own other than when expressed by a knowing subject. Your lot keep arguing in an atheistic world there is no good or bad. We keep saying there is no contradiction/ problem in an atheistic universe with the existence of evil because there is no where the universe is claimed to be benevolent. No atheist that I know argues the universe is all loving, all merciful. The problem of evil asks why is there suffering in a world overseen by an all loving god.
If you had read a little, you would know the argument you are trying to put forth, that this is the best possible world has been refuted. The freewill argument has been refuted. The third argument of relationship building has equally been refuted. Are you a pastor Jason? Or are you just ill informed?
3. On Christians
You would be hard pressed to find a place on this blog I ask for anything to be perfect. If there is any Christian, he died on a cross. The rest of you are Paulinites.
4. Satire
You call satire ad hominem? who have I insulted? Which argument have I derailed by resulting in personal attacks? Do you know what an ad hominem is?
5. On relying on authority
Jason, now you can complain of ad hominem. You are an idiot of the first degree. You claim my beliefs are not supported by evidence. You don’t know my beliefs. You then go ahead and claim atheism can’t explain the human mind, life, the beginning of the universe etc but it hasn’t tried to explain any of those. Logic is a tool, like a hammer and if anything, if your god[ whatever that is] existed, the laws of logic would exist independent of it. Your god, however hard it tried, would not make a square circle or make the sum of the angles of a triangle 210 deg. Be careful before you embarrass yourself.
You ask why I say we should improve the world; because I don’t want to live in a dirty place or polluted place. If the only motivation for you to do good, whichever way you define it, is because your god is watching, you should die sooner. You are a blight to the human race.
You embarrass yourself in every sentence.
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From the Koran: 8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh Alone…” The christian is as blind to truth as the atheist. Allahu akbar
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My friend, can you please stay off atheists. We are tired of threats of hell, a hell peopled with all the good people
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Sorry. I generally like to be “on” atheists, but only if they are beautiful and willing.
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Haha.
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Just an FYI Mak, I’m Dax is the author of the blog post, and Jason here is a either a friend or fellow christian in agreement with him.
As far as the ad hom, I think he was referring to the “dickhead” statement made earlier by one of our atheist friends. I suppose your most delightful use of the word “nincompoop” might possibly be considered one as well, but it’s a pretty funny one!
I always do enjoy your blog and comments while sipping my morning tea….hope you’re having a good evening!
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Jason I think came here to set the record straight and has found it rather hard.
He is a nincompoop!
I am glad, this blog is meant as a place for learning and entertainment. I am always happy when you get both or at least just one.
My evening is coming on well. Enjoy your tea and have a pleasant day
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I tried to give him some education about his techniques in my last comment, but I suspect it will be to no avail.
Nonetheless I love to come here for the humor of it all! ❤
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I hope he learns.
The humour is the most important thing here. We can’t be too serious about life now, can we?
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Hi Jason, I should point out that William Lane Craig is not particularly well regarded in non theistic areas. He is more seen as a person who defends the indefensible in his arguments in favour of the Canaanite genocide.
Might have been better if he just admitted it actually never likely happened, my position.
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Hi Peter good to see you around.
I forgot that about wlc and his endorsement of the dct.
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Lawrence Krauss provides a very sound rebuttal of the cosmological arguments WLC provides. Krauss provides clear evidence that the fine tuning argument overstates its case.
As for the argument from morality, I think that particular argument is perhaps the most counterproductive ever put forward by theists. It is the proverbial own goal, which achieves the opposite to what is intended. If anyone sees the Bible as a guide to morality then I suggest they re-read Numbers 31.
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Maybe they haven’t read it in the first place.
They should realize the arguments are not evidence
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RE: Craig. The term you are looking for Peter, is Giant Prick.
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Ah, the old Cosmological argument – there must have been a first cause. How can anyone say that a primitive, tribal desert god like Yahweh was indeed that first cause? And what caused the first cause? What if the first cause had nothing to do with the supernatural, but merely with physics – why would anyone jump to the conclusion that a ‘god’ had anything to do with it, or for that matter, decline to simply say, “We don’t yet know, but we’re looking for the answers, and are content to accept that we may never find them, but that is no reason to try and jam a supernatural being into the empty hole.”
The Kalam argument:
The Kalam Cosmological Argument generally states like this:
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
There is a leap across an interminable abyss to go from that simple, logical statement, that has no significant difference from the Cosmological argument, to one of ‘goddidit’, and only the absurdly naive would make any effort to leap it.
The Fine-Tuning argument – of course the Earth appears fine-tuned for our existence, for the simple reason that we could never have evolved here if it weren’t. But that wasn’t always the case – there was a time when early life on earth survived in an atmosphere that was primarily nitrogen and hydrogen – I say survived, but in reality, they thrived, for that was the conditions under which they evolved – in fact, had they been other than single-celled creatures, they might have said the earth was fine-tuned just for them, as any other form of life, including our own, would have died instantly from breathing such an atmosphere. But as these tiny creatures lived their life spans and died, their bodies decomposed and the result of that decomposition was the release of a minute amount of oxygen. Over billions of years, that oxygen release, minute as it was, slowly changed the atmosphere of the planet. Some lifeforms adapted to the change and evolved to breath an oxygen-hydrogen mix, those that didn’t, died. So it took billions of years to ‘Fine Tune’ the earth for our existence, and if that hadn’t happened, some other life form would be sitting here today typing about how perfectly fine tuned the earth was for them, and therefore, there must be a god.
I won’t take up more space refuting the rest of Jason’s garbage – he is a William Lane Craig clone and as such, unworthy of wasting any significant amount of time answering, because Craig, realizing that the Bible is full of flaws, has spent his entire life inventing spins on these flaws and rationalizing how there can still be a god while these flaws exist – but bear in mind, that this is his job security, this is how he makes his living. So you can spend the day, if you have that kind of time to waste, refuting Jason’s arguments, but when you’re finished, and feeling pretty good about yourself, he will pop back to Craig and see what kind of spin Craig has found to refute arguments like yours, and then you’ll have another set of arguments to refute, without Jason having to break a sweat, other than a little copying and pasting. No matter how fallacious Craig’s arguments are, they are so numerous that those like you and I, who do NOT get rich from creating arguments, simply haven’t time nor inclination to refute them all – he likely counts on that.
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I think he is counting on that to claim he provided arguments and we didn’t respond while anyone with a few minutes and Internet connection would find refutation to the arguments he pasted here
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The fine tuning argument falls down when one observes that life is rare in the universe and is on the edges not central.
If the universe was designed for life, it should be abundant and able to live pretty much every where. Instead we find most of the universe is hostile to life and life only seems to have a foothold at the margins. This is what you would expect in a universe which was not designed.
Once again a creationist argument which is another own-goal like the much vaunted morality argument.
Whenever I see a theist site quote Einstein to support their case for ‘God’ I think to myself ‘oh no, more quote mining’. These people either don’t understand Einstein’s overall position or they are disingenuous.
Much like Darwin’s supposed deathbed conversion.
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Jason, uh, I think you might need to reconsider the word “iron-clad” when you talk about christian evidence.
Also as to this remark: “According to the atheist worldview, there is no purpose, no values, no morals, and no reason.” I don’t know a single atheist who who thinks that. Once again we have another christian telling atheists what they think. Maybe that has something to do with why we throw ad hominems at you?
And trust us, we sure as shit know you’re not perfect.
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But Violet did you really respond to what he was saying? Do you not see the truth here that throwing insults and accusations are what has been happening here without any thought as to what we are saying.
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You ask me why I won’t engage in reasonable discussions with Christians, Dax? Take a look at the first oh-so-reasonable sentence of your blog post: “The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good. Psalm 14:1”
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It is impossible to have a reasonable debate with most religious people.
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what insults? Your being called a dickhead by Ark was truly justified. You claim you have a doctorate and then come here and tell us you believe Noah sorted male and female mosquitoes before they boarded the ark.
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And you believe that this world formed out of nothing and this planet is on the precise cycle needed for life to live. I think you need more faith than I do for your belief. How we got hear from a Big Bang…. I’ll stick with Nosh and the mosquitoes
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Again you are too quick to make conclusions.
Nowhere have I talked about the beginning of the universe.
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The Bible can’t even get THAT straight, Mak – the anonymous Bible authors from the Southern Kingdom of Judah, in Jerusalem, wrote that the animals boarded in pairs, while the anonymous Bible authors from the Northern Kingdom of Israel insisted that some were in sevens, yet others were in twos – since Noah’s story was a blatant plagiarism of the 2800 BCE Sumerian work of fiction, “The Epic of Gilgamesh,” it’s a moot point anyway.
From “The Epic of Gilgamesh,” after Utinapistim, the Noah-like character, disemb-arked, he made a sacrifice to the gods: “The gods smelled the savor, the gods smelled the sweet savor and collected like flies over a sacrifice.”
From the Bible (Gen 8:21): “the Lord smelled the sweet savor“!
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Hey Violet,
How are the arguments wrong? I’ve given positive evidence for Christian Theism. The burden of proof is on you to show how I’m wrong. You can assert that a truth claim is false, but unless you can show it to be false you have not defeated it.
My definition for the atheistic worldview comes from Richard Dawkins. He said “The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Is he wrong? Would you disagree with the leader of the New Atheists movement? So, I’m not telling you what atheists believe but what an atheists says atheists believe.
Also, you incorrectly used ad hominem. I didn’t attack your personal character. An ad hominem argument is attacking the character of a person to invalidate the argument without actually dealing with the truth claim. I haven’t done that.
Again, as I said in my initial post, I would be glad to discuss evidence for Christianity but I don’t want to fight with anyone. I respect you and anyone else. Thanks for listening.
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“The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” I totally agree with that statement…but he’s talking about THE UNIVERSE, NOT PEOPLE.
I assure you I know what an ad hom is, but thanks anyway.
I would rather dig my liver out with a spoon then waste one more breath of my life arguing that book of shit you call the bible. I already know what you believe and every single argument you hold. Why don’t you google the atheist arguments for yourself and learn a thing or two, because I refuse to waste my breath.
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Violet,
Here is Dawkins full comment. You can see for yourself that I did not take his statement out of context. “The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”
Now, he is most certainly taking about people Violet. You are wrong. I’m not being mean, you are simply incorrect. Further, since you are clearly wrong about Dawkins own words, could you also be wrong concerning he arguments I gave? You haven’t defeated any, but claim it is a waste of time.
Violet, I don’t know you, but seriously, it sounds like you are uninformed. Now don’t take that as a slam, but if you can’t defeat my claims, what if Christianty is true and you could know God? What if you could experience him in a way that is life changing? The arguments I gave are enough reason to put your faith in Christ.
As for the bible, I haven’t even mentioned the bible. If given arguments from natural theology and the resurrection.
As for atheist arguments, I know them. In fact, with the above Dawkins comment , it looks like I know them better you. I cannot be an atheist because it simply isn’t true and easily defeated.
Finally, Violet I won’t argue. I hope somehow you might listen to my comments and at least think them through. Believe it or not, God is real, he loves you, and desires a relationship with you. He made it possible through his son Jesus.
Thank you for listening. I’ll give you the last word. God bless.
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Here is the statement you made: “According to the atheist worldview, there is no purpose, no values, no morals, and no reason.” Now re-read Dawkins statement…where does it say people (ie: atheists) have no purpose, values, morals, or reason? He’s saying the universe is a pitiless and cold place. Why don’t you try asking an atheist if they personally have purpose, morals, values, and reason? Of course you never will, and if you did, you’d never believe what we had to say anyway.
I don’t know what evidence for christ you think you’ve shown here tonight, but you’ve at least sent me to bed laughing my ass off. If anyone here needs a deity’s blessing, it’s surely you. 😉 Sweet dreams!
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I think there is a comprehension problem here. Dawkins statement talks about the universe being pitiless. Not people being indifferent. How can they be?
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Allahu akbar
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That is time we could spend talking about Deadpool 😀
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Awesome movie! Allahu akbar
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I loved it right from the beginning
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Was it any good?
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It was REALLY good! Great graphics, and funny as hell.
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Oh yeah. Laughed through it all
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You offered no evidence.
You claimed this argument and that argument prove god. In this place that is not evidence. And your Jeebus, you may have to do much more to convince us he even existed.
Dawkins is not the leader of the atheistic movement, I am. I have declared myself so. If you have any questions, send them to me. And Dawkins is not wrong unless you have a serious comprehension problem; he writes “the universe that we observe….” if you have an issue with either the observation or the conclusion you should point that out. You can’t play loose and fast and expect not to be called out.
You talk about truth; what is truth? And what truth are you talking about in this particular case.
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As Violet is a lady, I think what she is telling you is this:
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Funny…damned if you do/are…damned if you don’t/aren’t…bugger.
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The only truth there is is found in the Koran: 3:85: “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.” The arguments made by christians and atheists equally hold no merit because both are equally false. The denial of reality in no way makes it less real. From the Koran: 2:120: “Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion. Say: “Verily, Islâmic Guidance is the only Guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after what you have received of Knowledge, then you would have against Allâh neither any protector nor helper.” Awaken to the reality of Islam. Awaken to Allah. Allahu akbar
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Bless the Koran.
Pisspeace be upon the prophet.LikeLike
Allahu akbar
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I think it’s fascinating the way that even non-believers now accept the centrality of faith-themes in religious belief. Historically, believers themselves used to be the spokesmen for rationalism. It’s only in the modern era that religion seems to have retreated to the land of fideism.
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There isn’t a comprehension issue. Dawkins says, “some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice.” Now, it seems to me that he is clear that there is no purpose and no justice (moral duty). Dawkins would agree with me on my take on this. So would Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens. You guys are atheist, right? The logical conclusion to the atheistic worldview is that morals do not exist. Now I never said you don’t have morals personally. I’ve said that you don’t have a reason to have them because you do not have a ground. I am arguing that since morals are a reality, they come from a moral lawgiver, which is God. Objective moral laws only make sense if there is a moral law giver. As for evidence for Jesus, you are quite right. I’ve given arguments to look at concerning theism, but I have not supplied an argument for Jesus specifically. So here is one to ponder:
Christianity depends on the resurrection. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead then all Christians are wasting their time. I’m wasting my time. Dax is wasting his time. So, I would like to give an argument for the resurrection that may surprise you.
First of all, the historical documentation for Jesus is unparalleled. This includes the NT, Josephus, Tacitus, the early church fathers, and the gnostic gospels. Second, some attempt to give the argument to defeat the NT as a credible source because they assume that the NT was collaborated by the church. Historical evidence doesn’t show that. The NT authors wrote independently. So, there at least 8 independent sources all attributing to Jesus. If you have studied ancient documents and reliability, you will know that is a historical goldmine. For example, we don’t have no where near this much documentation for Julius Caesar and yet we all believe the ancient documents about him.
Now, onto the resurrection. I’m going to give an argument that includes 5 facts. These 5 facts are facts that virtually all NT scholars (Christian, atheist, and agnostic) agree on, even Bart Erhman (agnostic). These 5 facts give sufficient evidence to Jesus’ resurrection. You can read about this in “The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus.” By Gary Habermas and Michael Licona.
1- Jesus died on a Roman cross. No scholar disputes this.
2- the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus and it transformed them to the point they gave their life for it without recantation.
Now, this point needs some elaboration. First, no NT scholar disagrees with this, whether atheist or agnostic. Check the research in the book and you’ll see. Second, the case for the transformation of the disciples is strong. While Jesus was crucified, they scattered, left Jesus, and hid themselves. Then after seeing him they proclaimed this message in the same town, to the same authorities that crucified Jesus. They did this up until their death. And no one recanted. If we had one, just one disciple recant, you would be justified to call them crazy or they lied, but that is just not there. So, the next problem to deal with is the claim that, “people die all of the time for what they believe.” But to equate what a radical jihadist does with the disciples is not correct. The disciples did not die for what they believed but for what they saw. It is one thing to die for a belief and be wrong but quite another to die for something you said you saw that you never saw. And remember, there were no recantations. To me, that is huge. But it gets better.
3- the conversion of a skeptic. In the gospel of John, John tells us in chapter 7 that Jesus’ brothers did not believe him. However, Paul tells us that James, the brother of Jesus believed after seeing Jesus alive (1 Cor. 15). James writes a book in the NT and calls himself a slave for the Lord Jesus Christ. (James 1:1). We also know that he was the 1st pastor of the Christian church in Jerusalem. We also know he was killed for his faith. Why? He had no desire to believe. He wasn’t expecting anything. Quite the contrary, he was antagonistic toward Jesus. But he gave his life for Jesus. He saw him.
4- the conversion of an enemy. Paul. Paul was a hater of Christians. His own testimony bears that out. He was the equivalent of ISIS killing Christians today. He was not expecting anything nor did he want to believe. Yet, he was converted and wrote over half of the NT. He was killed in Rome for his faith. Why? His own testimony is that saw Jesus alive.
5- the empty tomb.
Now, those are the 5 facts that virtually all NT scholars (Christian, atheist, and agnostic) agree on. What they differ is what is the best explanation for these facts? What explanation has the best explanatory scope and power. There are 3 possibilities.
1- conspiracy theory. What is really interesting is that NT scholars (including atheist and agnostic) have actually thrown this out because there is no evidence for it. The conspiracy theory doesn’t explain fact 2, 3, or 4. When I found out that scholarship has moved away from acknowledging this as a plausible theory I was surprised. That was until I heard their case and the fact that there is simply no evidence for it. The evidence points the other way.
2 – the hallucination theory. This theory claims that all that claimed to see Jesus alive were hallucinating. The question to ask is what is an hallucination? Is it plausible to suggest that everyone had the same one? No where in history has anyone ever had the same hallucination. They are like dreams and no one has the same one. Plus, when someone hallucinates they expect to see something. James and Paul were certainly not expecting anything yet died for the faith. I would also argue that the disciples were not expecting anything. They ran away and locked themselves away. They were not expecting a bodily resurrection. So, this theory does not give the best explanation of the facts. Oh and by the way, it doesn’t explain the empty tomb.
3- resurrection. He really rose from the dead. This explains all of the facts that are given. This has the best explanatory power and scope
Now that argument is one based on historical evidence. But allow me to give an experiential one. Since trusting and following Christ, my life is different. I was so many terrible things but when I committed to Christ, my life changed. My heart is different. My desires changed. I found peace, joy, and real love. I know myself well enough that I know that I did not create that in my heart. Something happened inside of me that changed me and I have never gotten over it.
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Jason, you say there is no comprehension problem but you repeat the same mistake. He is saying the universe is not just. Some people get hurt, others not, there is no reason or rhyme. The universe is pitiless and indifferent. How does this translate to atheists are indifferent are pitiless? Dawkins wouldn’t agree with you. You can write him and Sam Harris mail and they will not agree with you.
You write
which is not the heart of the matter. The believer must first provide evidence that there is revelation, that the bible or whatever holy book is divinely revealed before even we discuss the issue of the resurrection. I am almost certain you have no argument that will surprise me.
Unfortunately Jason, those claims of yours are not new to me and I am not even impressed.
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Resurrection is the heart of the matter not inspiration. Inspiration is a discussion among Christians, not unbelievers. I am not treating the NT as inspired but as historical documents. Your reasoning is faulty. Why should I argue for divine inspiration to prove the resurrection? That doesn’t follow and isn’t necessary. One is not saved because of belief of divine inspiration, but by trusting Jesus work (death and resurrection).
Now, I believe in inspiration but that isn’t why I’m a Christian. I gave the reasons for why I’m a Christian in my argument for the resurrection. I’m a Christian because Jesus really rose from the dead.
You need to ponder the historical evidence for Jesus’ resurrection and decide which is the best explanation.
All the best.
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Then you don’t get it. The people writing the books claimed to be divinely inspired. If they were not, their stories remain just that human stories and we don’t even have to bother with the resurrection.
You have been blinded by what pastors oft repeat without looking at the entire problem
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Your argument doesn’t follow. They either told the truth or not. Inspired or not. To use your logic means I can’t believe you unless you’re inspired by God? That is nonsensical. Bro, listen to yourself. Truth can be truth, inspired or not. I feel like I’m in a shouting match. I don’t want to argue. Thanks for the dialogue. I can check back later if you would like to discuss further, otherwise I feel that this is pointless and I wish it wasn’t.
Once again; all the best
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No, you miss the point. I haven’t at any point said i am inspired. I only ask to be believed if what I say is sensible.
You are here talking about truth, the one thing I asked you to tell me what it is and you conveniently ignored.
The bible is either divinely inspired or it isn’t.
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Here’s the full word of God, packed with indisputable evidence, from the Koran: 9:29: “Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Both christian and atheist have eyes, yet they walk with them closed. Both christian and atheist have ears, but the walk with sticky stuff in them blocking out God’s word. The christian thinks himself just and above the atheist, yet the christian and the atheist both are wrong and both shall suffer God’s wrath for their blasphemy. Allahu akbar
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You make me want to laugh out loud. Do you believe your good book came straight from heaven? In Arabic?
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Yes. And you would too if you but listened to the truth around around you. Christians, too, are incapable of seeing reality. They’re so deeply blindly by their hocus pocus book of lies that they fail to see the damnation which awaits them in Hell. To blaspheme as they do, with such arrogance and prideful words, has angered God, the REAL God, Allah, far more than their lying minds know. Oh, how they will weep when the judgment of God falls on them for their lies and blaspheme! Oh, how they will then beg to be forgiven, but they shall not be. Hell is for blasphemers, and christians blaspheme as freely as others breath air.
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My book is a blank book. We write on it and erase wherever we know better
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“we don’t have no where near this much documentation for Julius Caesar”
That simply isn’t true – as a Roman general in France, Julius sent back letters to the Roman Senate, informing them of his progress )”Omni est Gaulia divide in tres partes —” – we have quite a collection of those, but I’m still waiting for letters from Yeshua – oh, that’s right, he was likely illiterate.
You cited sources of people who had written about Yeshua, as being evidence, not only for his existence, but for his resurrection – none of those who ever wrote about him, including the four anonymous authors of the gospels – ever met him nor had first-hand knowledge of what he did or what he said.
Morals are an evolved social construct that allowed our early ancestors to survive through cooperation – the Neanderthal was not nearly so social an animal, and they are now extinct.
A sense of morality – call it proto-morality if you like – goes back much further than modern humans —
Compassion:
Concern:
Empathy:
If we get our morality from a god, why is it that our moral intuitions are so radically different from his? Why do we agree that women are entitled to equal rights and opportunities and yet your god views them as property, as a commodity to be traded, bought and sold? Why do we agree that genocide is wrong while he not only permits it, but encourages it, even urges it? Why do we agree that slavery is wrong and yet he not only permits it but even provides rules governing the institution? Why do we agree on the value of religious freedom and yet he dictates slaughter for anyone that would dare worship another god than he?
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I wrote my comment without reading yours and I didn’t realize that we pretty much agree about the origin of morals.
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The author of the Op implied he has faith and that is the starting argument. I tried to summarize his points
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Do you find it odd that I can give answer after answer, I can give evidence supported by scholars, and yet you are correct simply because you assert it? You all have demanded evidence, yet once it is given there is no discussion over the truth claims. There is nothing but unjustified assertion, which is nonsensical. Im sure you’re glad your bank doesn’t think like you do with your money. I bet when it comes to how much you get paid, truth is important.
If folks are going to act this way, we are not discussing, it is pointless. And I find that sad and heartbreaking. The only reason I’ve offered what I have is to hopefully help you see that Christianity is not some blind, unreasonable faith. But to help you see that we have a reasonable faith. Moreover, I hope you all think through this. If salvation, heaven, and God is a possibility, you are doing yourself a great disservice to simply ignore what Dax and I have said “just because.” I mean, think about it. Not one time has anyone successfully refuted anything I’ve said. Not one time has anyone given positive evidence to their worldview. And yet, you will stand so firm on it? With what? Blind faith? The tables have turned.
God bless.
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Why are you crying foul? You said you had evidence for Christianity, I didn’t find it convincing. You said you had evidence for god, you mentioned arguments, I told they don’t qualify as evidence.
The moment I state something that requires me to provide evidence ask for it. I will be forthright and either tell you I don’t have or can point you to where it is.
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If you don’t find it convincing, then why not? Take issue with my claims. I gave you the following:
Cosmological argument
Kalam argument
Fine tuning argument
Moral argument
I answered the problem of evil.
I gave an argument for the resurrection.
So, if I’m wrong, then take issue with those and refute it with justifiable defeaters.
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Jason
Are you suggesting you haven’t seen refutations of the arguments or you want me to link you to the ones I have written? You haven’t answered the problem of evil. You claimed for example
this is the best possible world- it is not for I can easily conceive of a better one
you mentioned freewill- there is no evidence that we have it and even if we did, it doesn’t explain the problem
you said relationship building- i told you this is a strange thing to say. It would be a kin to punishing your child to extract their love. You don’t do that. Why would a god do it?
You repeated claims others before you have made about the resurrection. They have been all been contested.
Where have you not been taken seriously?
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Jason, you raise many issues here. Most of us on this site are very familiar with these arguments and do not find them persuasive. Whilst, if we had the inclination we could provide rebuttals, however such debates seem to go around in circles with neither party accepting the arguments of the other.
It all comes back to ‘is the Bible a divine or a human book’. My conclusion is that it is a human book. So even if your non biblical arguments are accepted it would still not persuade me that ‘god’ of the Bible was behind creation.
But a bit of time listening to Lawrence Krauss, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Sean Carroll will provide rebuttals to most of your arguments that are far more articulate than i could provide.
Sean Carroll is especially worth listening to as he is not pushing an atheist agenda.
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Peter you are very polite.
Why would a theist think the arguments are new to us?
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‘Why would a theist think the arguments are new to us?’
Exactly Mak!
When we see the same tired old arguments we have heard many times before it is dispiriting. Still, as I mentioned over at Ark’s blog, at least they aren’t putting forward Young Earth Creationist arguments.
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Maybe they can listen to you Peter. You are patient, calm and don’t call them names
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Our theist friends seem to have tired of us. Perhaps they concluded it was a bit of pearls before swine type situation?
I sensed in the case of Jason he was surprised and a bit peeved that we did not accept the apologist 101 arguments he presented.
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He threw a fit when I told him his supposed facts are nothing new to me. He must have been feeling great with himself when he pasted it here thinking I am going to be surprised there is something new he has to offer
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Mak, the fact it was so obviously the same old, same old, was a turn-off for me.
Perhaps the only thing worse is when someone who is clearly not a scientist suddenly raises the 2nd law of thermodynamics. As soon as you see that it like they are saying to you ‘I actually have no idea what I am talking about but I am going to try and bamboozle you by sounding like an expert on science’
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Haha hahaha. I have seen that done enough times I laugh
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Jason, let me help you out here, because I fear you have no idea what you’ve walked into.The atheists that frequent Mak’s blog are not “seekers” who are questioning their state of belief or disbelief. We’ve been atheists for some time, and there is even an ex-pastor posting on this thread. Many (but not all) of us have had agonizing deconversions where we looked at christian “evidence,” examined every piece of it, and found it to be crap. You can’t convert us, don’t try.
The fact that your friend here, Dax, wrote an extremely insulting post about atheists is simply not going to help your case. This is the first sentence of that blog post, and is a quote from the book you hold as holy: “The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.” Psalm 14:1
You will never get respect from atheists, or get them to engage in a serious conversation with you, until you start showing some respect yourself. Of course since your deity doesn’t *allow* you to respect us, that’s going to be a hard jump for you to make. Good luck with it. 🙂
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You could tell him in this circle, William Craig is not rated highly. If he wants to be treated seriously, evidence is all he has to offer
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Vi – you should have seen the arrogant Doctor Dax’s first comment on Ark’s site: “I am smart.” – when you lead with that, where do you go from there?
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That was a silly way to begin a conversation
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I always start conversations by saying, “I am short.”
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Well, that we already know. We also know you have a bolt stuck in your right hand and further that you eat babies 😀
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True. You know, but others aren’t as observant. You’re smart.
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I usually try to not to leave the house not looking smart.
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I’ve always admired that about you.
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😀
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UGH. It’s probably a good thing I didn’t see that, or I might have started throwing ad homs myself…and you know I’m not in the habit of such things!
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I was wondering, if you ad one hom to another hom, do you get a hom-hom or do you just add an “s” to hom to get two homs? Life throws so many tough questions at us, eh?
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“Hom-hom” is way cooler than just homs! It also sounds sort of fluffy and effeminate, which is sure to piss the christian men off to no end. 😀
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Meek, mild, unobtrusive little you? Never!
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Hehe. If the fuckers stopped ringing my doorbell I might be able to be meek again, forget about religion, and move on with my life. As it is I get slapped in the face with it 20 times a day from the neighborhood preachers, plus have a devoutly religious family to deal with. That has a way of making a girl a bit hostile and irritable. Thank goodness Mak’s blog offers some good humor and chance for me to blow off some steam!
I think I’m beginning to really see the wisdom of Ark’s ways. Why treat these predators with anything other than disdain?
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What a sweet little Christian girl you used to be – (sigh) – they grow up SO fast —
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I would be very irritated myself if I had such guests regularly
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But when you do, you do it so well
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Sorry, Vi – I lost that when I lost my other computer, but today, I found it again – I’m sure it’s too late now.
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I am an impatient sort so i went to the source. I asked those questions and was somewhat chastised. I don’t ask to be trollish. I’m agnostic which makes people prickly.
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You are in the right place. Robert Vella is agnostic and a good friend of mine
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Mak, please release that one comment of mine from moderation – it had three links, and got caught in your WP spam trap – thanks.
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It has been approved
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“All the best my Muslim friend. Allah will reward with you 72 virgins.”
That may not turn out quite like he’d planned- Allah has a sense of humor —
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217 comments! Usually I read the comments before commenting myself – it only seems polite. With 217 comments I hope you’ll excuse me for being a little rude. I’ll get a cup of tea and enjoy them later. I’m not entirely sure what in this particular post got under everyone’s skin.
I did go ahead and read the OP. It seems he makes the mistake a lot of people arguing on this subject make, which is seeing his own culture as the only culture. The whole “law must have a law-giver” argument ignores the fact that large chunks of humanity, not just modern atheists, have existed without a primary law-giver deity.
I think I’ve mentioned in the past that I’ve had a disproportionate number of friends from East Asia, principally Chinese, as well as a smaller number of friends from Asian-American families. One boyfriend, an American whose parents were from Taiwan, speculated about it sometimes because it’s a bit of a puzzle. Leaving the puzzle aside, it means I’ve had plenty of occasion of hearing off-hand comments about Western religion. My general impression is that they are not “offended” so much as they seem to think it’s weird. They don’t understand why Christians are not more immoral than they are. The question I am often asked is something to the effect of: “So, you do something wrong. You pray. You’re forgiven. Then everything’s okay. So, what’s to stop people from doing something wrong if you can pray and be forgiven afterward?” I usually have to remind them that I’m not Christian and can’t answer the question.
Anthropology is not really my thing so I’m hesitant to make grand sweeping statements that no traditional (meaning pre-modern, so I would consider pre-Enlightenment European culture “traditional”) culture is atheist the way we consider it today. Still, it seems to me that there are plenty of cultures that have beliefs that lack the large primary God that is the source of morality the way the Abrahamic religions conceive it.
And, yet, no human society could survive without morality.
I know I’ve said it on these comment thread before, and I’m sorry if I sound like a broken record, but we are social animals. Most of us would be hard pressed to survive in the wilderness, let alone flourish and reproduce ourselves. We are far too helpless as infants, and for too long a period of time. We may not need the large complicated societies we have today, however I can’t think of any parts of the world where people lived as isolated individuals for several consecutive generations. Examples of individual living alone always seem to be anomalies.
Again, anthropology is not my strong suit, but I would be curious to know if there’s a threshold for community size below which bands or villages rarely fall and remain stable. (The best I could do with a quick search was the speculation that 160 is the bottom number for a stable population for space colonization. I don’t know where they got that number, however. Interestingly, Wikipedia says that “intimate groups” are rarely greater than 150.) In order to survive in groups we develop codes of behavior. Often, these aren’t written down so much as understood. We call it “morality.”
I sometimes think of morality as the human equivalent of instinct. Some people might argue that morality is learned and transmitted culturally, but I think the photos of the apes that arch posted indicates that the root feelings are innate even if the specific manifestations are cultural.
Point number three, that there is no such thing as atheists, is a weird one that comes up time and time again. It’s obviously very meaningful for the theists for some reason. I’m not really sure why they have such a strong need to believe that there are no “atheists.” Usually, it comes down to a matter of playing with the definition. The writer says, “Their high power might not be God; instead it might be science, reason, math or astronomy or maybe money, power or fame. Whatever it might be they worship something.”
I think this dilutes the meaning of the word “worship” to the point of meaninglessness. From a Christian website I got:
I’m not sure that I hold anything in the world in quite that regard. Certainly not art. Not literature. These are probably the things I value most. Honesty? Not really.
It also is a very strange notion of the phrase “higher power,” which I never heard until I dated an atheist who had been sentenced to alcoholics anonymous after being arrested for disturbing the peace as a teenager. AA is notorious for being difficult for atheists because it has religious origins that are, to some people, still evident in its treatment. You’re supposed to rely on God, not yourself. They tell atheists that they can think of this as a higher power. Needless to say, the ex-boyfriend did no do well and when I dated him still drank. He says he was never an alcoholic, just an irresponsible teenager. (Besides being an atheist, he was also Vietnamese.) (Wikipedia confirms that the origin of the idea is AA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Power : “It is frequently stipulated that as long as a higher power is “greater” than the individual, then the only condition is that it should also be loving and caring.”) In any case, he learned to despise AA and said that he was never able to find an adequate substitute for the higher power. He’s far from the only one. Some people pretend to find something because they desperately want to. No higher power might mean returning to jail. There’s been a lot of criticism from non-believers – as well as people who like programs that actually work. Fortunately, I’ve never had a problem with any addictions. Still, when discussing this with people, I’ve often wondered what I would choose as a “higher power.” (N.B. It’s no longer legal to sentence people to AA, although sometimes courts try to. If you’re not astute and have access to a good lawyer, you might wind up feeling forced, even though it’s not legal.)
So, I’m not really sure it’s correct to say that everyone has a higher power, if you define it in the way AA does. So, I could say “truth,” but truth doesn’t care about me. I can’t let go and let “truth.” It’s too abstract. Higher Power was already a way of accommodating non-Christians. If you redefine “Higher Power” even more broadly to include outright atheists, you have made the word all but meaningless.
Still, as I’ve said many times, if you want to tell yourself that I’m really an agnostic or I’m not a “true” atheist, it really doesn’t bother me at all. It’s a definition in your mind that has no effect on my actual belief or lack thereof.
I think far too many proselytizers on the internet live in a world where most people who believe in a religion are Christian and therefore most of the people who are atheists have rejected Christianity either explicitly, in the case of former Christians, or implicitly, in the case of people like me who were given no religious instruction but live in a Christian majority area.
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Simply – but not very eloquently – put, moral behavior within a group is that behavior that stops short of getting you expelled from the group.
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With this comment, you are allowed to be rude, not that anyone ever notices😀
I think Dax and Jason, especially Jason, thought he had evidence for his chosen imaginary friend only to reappear as Craig clone.
Dax was just lost, I think
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I have said elsewhere that those who treat morality in isolation forget we are social animals, in fact, all social animals do have some way of living together or it would be impossible to propagate life
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Mak, yes this is exactly the point. It is a powerful explanation that is far better explanation of morality than ‘God’.
As I said earlier the morality argument put forward by theists is particularly weak, especially given the biblical testimony if taken as a whole rather than cherry picked as apologists are prone to do.
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I think they fail to realize all, if not most, of the prohibitions involve violating another’s will.
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