on god and David’s son


This post by Ufuomaee is a followup to a post by KIA where he dealt with the death of the child of Bathsheba and David.

She tells us, with bold font added by us for emphasis, that

This was like some sort of a revelation, at the time I shared it.  I was thinking, at the time, how the value we place on our lives here and now is often what hinders us from believing in God and eternity.  And I think this is the fundamental flaw of Mike’s analysis.

which, dear friends, is not why we are atheists. It is the failure by the god believers to provide evidence for their god that we are atheists. The same goes for eternity. We have no evidence to believe in eternity. And besides, if she didn’t value this life why would she want eternity, especially if, to her, eternity is a continuation of this life in the presence of her loved deity?

I think it was Nietzsche who said Christianity is a death cult. Our friend writes,

But in Christianity, we called to DIE before we can live…

And I think most of them remain dead. They never live.

She then tells us

I think the reason I have never cried, and will never cry for this child (which Mike believes is fictional), is because I believe that he is already in a better place ().  This life, here on Earth, is over-rated!

And I am wondering why Christians like her aren’t praying to god to call them to his dwelling place. All of the Christians I know love this life and don’t want to die. They take medication when they are sick, eat well and so much more. To say you wont weep for the child because he is in a better place, a place you have no way of knowing it exists, is to me heartless.

Atheists, she says

 But here it is, the thing Atheists can’t seem to get their heads around – God is the only one JUST to take away what He is the only one able to give.

Divine Command Theory anyone?

If she were arguing as David Benatar does in his book Better not to have been, then this

Whether or not he would have lived a life worth living, or if he would have been a tyrant of a king, we really don’t know.

would have had some weight. Or if she were like Spencer, who when his newly born babe died, argued the bible was very wise to not have wanted to live long. Reminds me of what Nietzsche writes, it is better not to be born but once born to die sooner. For a person who believes in an omnipotent god, what a person becomes should not be a problem. Unless she is willing to limit the extent of omnipotence, she can’t have her cake and eat it.

Her next consideration also paints a picture of a god without options and incapable of seeing his works to fruition. If, as the book says, they were god’s chosen people, one shouldn’t even consider the possibility of a powerful god failing to provide them with a leader. Most of the time believers point to Joseph as an example of god working with anyone he so chooses. There should have been no vacuum of leadership were god to do the right thing. Besides it would have been a good lesson to the people of Israel that it is not proper to get a person killed to have either his wife or husband as the case may be.

Why did god command several wars of annihilation for entire tribes?

I know why God did it (the same reason you don’t cut off weeds, but pull them out, roots and all), but I really wish there had been another way prepared then.

Who was their god? Couldn’t Adonai forgive them without having to shed blood? Was it possible that even the day old babes in Sodom were guilty of some transgression?

While she says

One innocent child dying at the judgement of God, I can understand…

I, on the other hand, with Ivan in the Inquisitor cannot accept the death of a single child at the judgement of god. What god does that to a child?

It has not always been the case that

I think that even today, a king’s life is considered as valuable as that of all his subjects combined!  The reasoning goes that without his leadership to unite and guide them, they would all certainly fall into chaos, mischief and peril.

and this is supported by the many instances of ritual killing of the kings.

And while it is the case that

The truth is we all make judgement calls on the value of human life every day by the way we treat the living; whether near or far, friend or foe, sinner or saint, rich or poor, black or white etc.  Evidence shows that the value of human life is both immeasurable and inconsistently applied.

we have the excuse of being ignorant, driven by passions we hardly can control and greed. What excuse would a god have for treating humanity with favouritism, especially, being as it were, that he is claimed to be the creator?

Finally, she asks

It has also always baffled me how Atheists or Humanists would make an issue with God about His right to take life at will, and yet condone abortion for those who are inconvenienced by the life of another human being.  But that’s a whole other kettle of fish.

and I think this is to trivialize the issue.

To answer her final questions.

  • Has this post given you a new perspective on Christianity and the God of the Bible?

No, but it has done much more to convince me that some Christians are no different from their god.

  • What about the value we place on humanity?

Nothing new here. It is evident that we treat people differently, and for good reason.

  • Do you think that such accounts are proof that Jehovah is fictional or is there a different perspective on this you would like to share?

No, the accounts themselves do not tell us much about whether god[s] exist. Similarly, reading about wizards in any of Harry Potter books doesn’t bring us any close to solving the problem of wizards. All we can tell is that an author at a certain point in history imagined a god who abates assassinations and chooses as his representative the perpetrators of crimes. Nothing else. It is just a so so story and nothing more.

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About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

82 thoughts on “on god and David’s son

  1. foolsmusings says:

    “Blessed are the abortionists for they allow babies to bypass this retched morality altogether.” Shouldn’t that be how the good Christian people see it. Maybe bad people should be sentenced to eternal life instead of death? I don’t think they’ve thought this out carefully. :p

    Liked by 3 people

  2. renudepride says:

    Excellent points, my Kenyan brother. One aspect in debating theists, at least in my own limited experience, are their repetitive arguments. With all the monies the collective churches swindle from their followers, you would think that they could hire some new writers to add variety to their script. They desperately need some fresh material. Naked hugs!

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Just a so so story or a just so story?

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Violet says:

    Just putting in my two cents: I worked as a hospital RN for over a decade and assure you, I’ve seen many, many religious people beg god for death instead of the suffering they’ve been given. The fact that god can ignore this deep suffering and drag on the dying process for YEARS has tested the faith of many theists, and broken the faith of more than one.

    As to David’s baby, this story is used to incite shame upon women who have miscarried among the fundies. I had several miscarriages and my fellow theists were convinced it must be due to my sin, same as David. They also told me my illness is due to my sin, my child’s illness is due to my sin, and the loss of my faith is again due to my sin. At some point it simply no longer pays to be religious. 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

    • Peter says:

      Violet I think the way hypocrisy works is like this:
      – Someone else is ill – due to their sin;
      – The person themselves is ill – the Devil is attacking them.

      I heard an interview with an female obstetrician yesterday, This lady specialised in difficult pregnancies, but it was only after she suffered a miscarriage herself that she fully appreciated the emotional impact of the experience. She said that every miscarriage, no matter at what stage of pregnancy was a profoundly emotional experience.

      Bearing this in mind, to throw guilt upon the poor mother at that time is a shocking thing to do. I can only ponder the emotional scars that would leave behind, damage that would be very difficult to heal. It is quite amazing how cruel some people can be, all while claiming the moral high ground.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Violet says:

        I agree, Peter. To further this point I’ll tell you what happened when I went to my church counselor after my first miscarriage. They wanted to put me in a support group with women who had abortions (I learned later some of these women aborted because their babies could not survive outside the womb). Why was I told to go to the abortion group? Because we’d all lost our babies by sin, be it through the sin of our own hand (abortion) or through the “fall of women in general.”

        When I look back on this as an atheist I’m utterly appalled. I can’t believe theists can get away with this level of brainwashing and abuse.

        Of course many of my evangelical friends said, “oh, our church would never do that.” Yet if you believe in original sin, you do endorse this abusive theology.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Peter says:

          A lady once told me how she called in the elders of her evangelical church to pray for the healing of her sick husband. When her husband failed to recover and died the elders accused her of not having enough faith.

          Another Lady told me that after her husband died unexpectedly at a young age a Christian ‘friend’ told her it must because of sin in her life.

          Oh no evangelical churches would never do that sort of thing!

          Liked by 2 people

    • makagutu says:

      Hey dear,
      Do these theists also believe that whatever happens is god’s will? They should not pray for release from pain unless by that they mean god was unfair in allocating their portion of suffering.
      Have a pleasant Sunday

      Liked by 1 person

      • Violet says:

        You are correct…praying for release from pain can cause tremendous guilt, as that means you’re not fully accepting of god’s will for your life. There’s no winning in Christianity.

        PS You can tell Easter is approaching as the damn door-to-door proselytizers are hell bent on converting our entire town (which is laughable since everyone’s already christian, but perhaps they’re not the *proper* denomination). Three times a day the cultist are here. ACK!

        Liked by 1 person

  5. atheistsmeow says:

    You’d think if heaven with gawd was so wonderful, they’d be doing everything they could to get there faster.

    Like

    • Nan says:

      Strange how this life has such a pull, eh?

      Liked by 1 person

    • makagutu says:

      You know but being sly, they have made suicide immortal sin. There is just no winning with theists

      Liked by 1 person

      • Peter says:

        Mak always puzzled me with Islamic Suicide bombers as Islam teaches Suicide is a no no. But it seem the martyr aspect supersedes that. Though as an aside it has always puzzled me how a person who chooses to die could be classified a martyr. But I suspect I should not expect logic to be a strong suite of these issues.

        What is most telling to me is that the religious leaders don’t seem to do the suicide bombings rather they get the poor dupe to do it, or more likely some young person who is told their family will be tortured and killed if they don;t go through with it.

        If there was a God and Hell then I suspect the first people there would be the preachers swho encourage these actions.

        But then again apparently Islamic Hell is worse than Christian Hell apparently in Islamic Hell once tortured to death your body is regenerated to go through it again and again. It is truly barbaric.

        Liked by 1 person

        • makagutu says:

          Puzzling indeed.
          I, too, wonder how the Muslim suicide bombers end up being referred to us martyrs when they go to their deaths willingly.
          Seneca was right, the common people take religion to be true. The religious class use it to maintain power

          Liked by 2 people

        • Violet says:

          Huh…did not know the Islamic hell is worse than the christian hell. I guess there are gods out there worse than Jehovah. I hear Thor was rather nasty too.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Peter says:

            Violet in the Norse pantheon to get to heaven one had to die a glorious death (i.e. in battle). Dying a bad death such as disease or old age meant no entry. Little wonder the Vikings were such fierce warriors who terrorised pretty much all Europe for hundreds of years.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Violet says:

            I believe Thor also required human sacrifice. Not a nice deity at all!

            Like

  6. KIA says:

    Thx for posting this. I thought one of the most chilling statements she made in her response to me was that she will never weep and cannot weep for David’s baby, because God is god.
    Monsterous… and so is the biblical god.

    Liked by 2 people

    • makagutu says:

      Monstrous is the word

      Liked by 2 people

      • KIA says:

        There is no ‘greater good’, no ‘higher purpose’ that would justify the torturous murder of a newborn infant. And the fact that ufuomaee not only worships such a Monster but justifies it’s actions tells you so much about the insidious and soul crushing nature of Christian Apologetics and religion in general.
        If a human did this, she would instantly and incessantly agree with me. But because it is her god that did this, fictionally speaking, ‘God is god and does as he pleases’. Amazing inhumanity is bred and encouraged by the god of the bible.

        Liked by 1 person

        • makagutu says:

          In her response to me, she did say her tweet where she claims that it all depends on who elevate, god or humanity. Crazy if you think about it

          Liked by 1 person

          • KIA says:

            If you think about it, an all powerful God would be more of a monster than a human who did this. Because he would have the power, ability and discretion not to… But he does it anyway. Then asks you to Trust that he is being all loving, graceful and merciful as the child breaths his last tortured breaths. Horrific indeed

            Liked by 1 person

      • basenjibrian says:

        The Owner of All Infernal Names, indeed. I know that Mr. Zande meant this an intellectual exercise of sorts, but it is just so darn logical that the TRUENESS of it has influenced (or at least confirmed) my own thinking as to the character of our imaginary Yahweh.

        Like

        • makagutu says:

          I saw he has published a second book. Hopefully he will make it available in epub format.

          Like

          • basenjibrian says:

            It’s a challenging and dense read (his style is not easy for someone used to skimming internet memes) but very amusing and well-researched and quite thorough.

            My only complaint is I had to contribute a small pittance to a particularly vile and malicious subdemon of TOOAIN, namely Jeff “Soulcrusher” Bezos, Cenobite General of Amazon 🙂

            Like

  7. “This life, here on Earth, is over-rated!” Then why in f**k’s name do you keep living it? Ugh! This thinking drives me bats!

    Liked by 2 people

  8. Peter says:

    Mak another thoughtful post. However to some extent these discussions between atheists and Christians get nowhere. The reason being because if there is an eternity after death which could involve either beliss or agony then the important thing is to avoid the torture and achieve the bliss.

    In the eternal perspective this life is but a ‘blink of an eye’.

    But if there is no threat of eternal agony and no prospect of eternal bliss after death, rather if we cease to exist then the whole balance changes.

    So our friend Ufuomaee might see the dying child as blessed as that child misses the travails of living here on earth and instead goes straight into eternal bliss.

    So this debate will just go around in circles as despite what some might claim for near death experiences, no one has come back from the dead so we don’t know what happens. Harry Houdini did say that if he could would come back as a ghost to haunt his friends, but apparently never did.

    Liked by 1 person

    • “Harry Houdini did say that if he could would come back as a ghost to haunt his friends, but apparently never did.” Oh, yes he did. He’s sittin’ here with me right now drinkin’ beers. Well, OK, MAYBE, just MAYBE, the mushrooms I took have something to do with this. Believe what you wish, but Houdini is here with me right now. BTW, Houdini was one of THE best de-bunkers of afterlife bullshit belief who ever lived. I gotta love ’em for that. Plus, he was kinda nuts in what he’d do for his act, so I gotta love ’em for that, too. 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • makagutu says:

      Peter I agree with you on all counts. The believer is going to heaven, evidence to the contrary be damned. So yes, with most theists, this discussion is futile

      Liked by 1 person

    • basenjibrian says:

      But the problem is the unfairness of this whole scheme, Peter. It would be a false bliss to be with such a deity. And other comments here point out how they really don’t, deep down inside, believe it themselves. They certainly fight for their lives like all animals.

      Like

  9. john zande says:

    Good. Grief. There is some mental gymnastics going on there. She concludes with

    It has also always baffled me how Atheists or Humanists would make an issue with God about His right to take life at will, and yet condone abortion for those who are inconvenienced by the life of another human being. But that’s a whole other kettle of fish.

    Yet states earlier she’s not bother at all wih the death a child because

    I think the reason I have never cried, and will never cry for this child (which Mike believes is fictional), is because I believe that he is already in a better place (). This life, here on Earth, is over-rated!

    Isn’t she saying, then, that abortion would save the child sorrow and missery.

    It’s ever so hard to talk rationally to someone who shows you a black ball and says its white… then whines when you ask for clarification.

    Liked by 3 people

  10. Arkenaten says:

    You wonder sometimes if such people have had a form of theological lobotomy.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Ron says:

    “But God made the call to take him from David, for a higher purpose.” ~ Ufuomaee

    And 2 Samuel 12:14 spells out that higher purpose in unadulterated King James English:

    “because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.”

    The Cambridge Commentary grants further clarification.

    The enemies of Jehovah would mock and blaspheme Him, when they saw His chosen representative, the King of Israel, thus breaking His law. To divorce Bath-sheba now would be a further wrong. Yet if he was not punished men might answer yes to the question “May one be pardoned and retain the offence?” And therefore a long series of chastisements, beginning with the death of the child, must unequivocally declare the divine judgment on such sin.

    tl;dr

    Lord G’s higher purpose was to maintain his reputation.as the one true bastard. Harrumph!

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      Wouldn’t this mean also that the enemies of the lord must be other gods? Other mortals wouldn’t bother an omni god. He could at any time send bears to tear them to pieces or send an earthquake or flood?

      Like

  12. NeuroNotes says:

    Great post, Mak. This quote from her — “how the value we place on our lives here and now is often what hinders us from believing in God and eternity.”, reminded me of something Carl Sagan said:

    “You see, the religious people — most of them — really think this planet is an experiment. That’s what their beliefs come down to. Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen’s wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can’t say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that.

    All this intervention speaks of incompetence. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn’t he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why’s he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there’s one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He’s not good at design, he’s not good at execution.”

    —————

    Living around evangelicals is so oppressive. They are a miserable lot, like the god they worship.

    Liked by 3 people

  13. quite a might equals right argument given by the Christian. And indeed, why aren’t these people doing all they can to get out of this life, that they supposedly hate oh so much? Why aren’t they volunteering to clear IEDs so others don’t have to? Why aren’t they volunteering to clean up the Fukushima nuclear plant?

    Like

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