It’s a chilly morning in Nairobi and I thought I could cheer up the non believers and Barry by bringing to your attention what awaits all of you in hell, Muslim hell and maybe cause you to change your minds. It is all in the name of the benevolent deity, most merciful and Mo is his prophet, so it can’t be wrong.
22.19-22These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. (Emphasis mine)
It must be a sick imagination that can conjure up such cruelty and it is blasphemous, if there was any, to suggest this came from a god, a loving and merciful god. At the same time, it does imply a full bodily resurrection which pose a challenge in these days of organ transplant. What becomes of a righteous muslim, whose organs were donated to a bad dude, at the point of resurrection? Do the people resurrect in the old bodies, that rotted away or are they new beings?
I put the horse before the cart. The good lord commands this
47.4 : So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah’s Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,
out of love for us all, especially the unblievers.
Go to a mosque near you and convert, it is for the benefit of your skin. You will thank me.
Random thoughts 
Wonder what their definition of cruelty is.
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I wouldn’t wait to know. I don’t like their idea of peaceful as it is
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Yeah, the peaceful bit is ridiculous.
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I don’t think it would be safe to wait for what their idea of cruelty and inhumane is
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No, & its frightening to say the least.
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I’m going to use iron hooks to drive you back into the flame to taste the doom of burning… but I love you. Btw, I wonder who those taskmaster burners are? Angels? Faithful Muslims? How romantic. Torture is not only a way of life, but hell, we can have us some jihad when we’re dead too. Sick, and cruel to even think that.
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There’s something sick about the mind that comes up with such punishment
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God has his reasons. After careful analysts I’ve decided the books were written by evil men. God (the writers) came from an immoral and violent time, and the punishments are a reflection of their core. Maybe the best they could do. We have proven any mom and pop or neighborhood committee can do better.
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Why the middle east only? African religion has nothing as sick as this. The Indians have nothing like this and even the Greeks just to name a few. What was it about that patch of land in Palestine that bred the worst in imagination?
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Mineral deficiency? Hallucination is a powerful thing. I was watching a TED last night on consciousness, and a host of abnormalities can cause abnormal hallucination. We all have them to a degree based on our perceptions, but when things go awry, anything can happen. Geophagia could probably cure some of that over there.
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A lot need to be done to understand what was peculiar about this place
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Maybe that all had low blood sugar. Famine coupled with starvation also equals hallucination. There are plenty of explanations outside of a god. I could think of twenty or thirty today alone.
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Maybe.
It was a sick imagination a few of them suffered and we have paid for it
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I don’t know, maka.
Many of the Mesoamerican religions were pretty grim as well. Prisoners where their hearts were cut out of them while still alive to feed Smoking Mirror so the sun will rise again. Sacred ball games (handball, basically) in which the losers were slain and fed to “the gods”. One reason the Spaniards conquered the Aztecs so easily is that the Aztecs were such bastards that Cortez found willing allies in his war on Montezuma.
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Oh yes. How would I forget the Aztecs. Killing to appease the gods
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I’m not actually sure about the last sentence. Too many stories about “village committees” demanding that the entire village rape a young girl because her brother had been seen with a girl of the wrong caste.
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and you have never dealt with the petty spitefulness of an Upper Middle Class American homeowners’ association. 😦
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“What becomes of a righteous muslim, whose organs were donated… ”
From what I know, Muslims do not donate organs. It is haram for them.
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Failsafe valve.
Hi Eric, how are you doing?
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One thing for sure, the gods sure have a lot in common… Nice guys not being one of them.
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A lot more than they are given credit for
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Brother, I think it’s not fair to quote a few verses of any book out of context. Even I used to get mislead years ago by quotation of some verses like this so I read the whole Quran in detail and found more verses on equity, justice and fairness. For example- Chapter 4 verse 135 says- “O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or your parents or your kindred, whether the case be of rich man or poor man, for Allah is nearer onto both. So follow not passion lest ye lapse from truth….Allah is ever informed of what ye do.”
As far is the verses you quoted are concerned, they belong to the context of war and the enemy u can say was more brutal than Nazis. Yet on many occasions Quran offers unmatched rules of fairness and kindness for treating these people once they have surrendered or have been captured (Chapter 9 verse 6). Please read Quran in full and in detail along with the context and circumstances in which it was revealed. As per Quranic Jurisprudence each verses of Quran has been revealed in a specific context. If you don’t take into account those context and circumstances, you will be mislead.
Peace and best regards! 💐
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Hello brother, I am going to be generous and concede that I read the several verses out of context, but that is as far as I will go.
Now I have some questions.
Where in my post do I say there are no suras on equity, justice and peace?
#2, in what context would a god, assuming the Koran is revealed by a benevolent god, justify murder of nonbelievers? Where is the mercy?
#3 Where do you get the idea that the enemies were worse than the Nazis when it refers to nonbelievers?
#4 granting for a moment that the Koran is revealed in a specific context, why would it still be relevant today when the contexts have changed? And can you name a context in which it is write to pour boiling water on non believers?
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the typical excuse of a theist aka “but but look at all of the other verses” and “but but context”. Sorry, dear, you bought whole sad package, you religion is vicious and ignorant. .
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One final question; is the Al fatiyah also context dependent
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Yes Brother. The context is of prayer, praise and submission to almighty that we remain on right path and do not digress. Please read on your own for greater satisfaction. best wishes 🙂👍🏽
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Quran (9:30): “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
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So inspiring. And contextish!
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I always read on my own. This admonition is worthless, if you think about it.
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I read his admonitions, and I just hear/imagine a parrot mindlessly repeating the buzz words that all religious people use. Because that is all he is giving us: Obey what you have been raised to obey, or else.
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#1. Yes agree on this aspect.
#2. As per Quran God is benevolent but also supreme, almighty, just and cannot be comprehended by human senses but his justice is assured (Quran 4:40-He will not wrong you, not even of the the weight of an ant). Quran permits believers to kill those non-believers who wage unwarranted war against them and not in peace time. Nowhere Quran advocates killing of an innocent person just because he/she is a non-believer. Quran 5:32-“Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” That’s why I told u brother don’t read verses standalone without understanding the scheme of Quran.
#3-For this please read the history of those times from good sources. It was utterly unjust, brutal, exploitative and oppressive. Yet, Quran does not advocate waging wars without any good reason. I can quote u one verse for reference- Quran 4:75-“And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak are ill-treated and oppressed? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” (Yusuf Ali Translation)
#4. It’s still relevant because it says so. As per Quran it’s the final revelation confirming all those that came before it and it’s context has to be interpreted accordingly taking into account the time it was revealed and today’s time keeping in mind the totality of circumstances. Brother it nowhere asks us to pour boiling water on anyone. God just warns that wrongdoers might be punished in such and such manner for their wrongdoings. As per Quran there is no compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256) So u are free to do whatever. The only purpose of Quran is as a reminder so that we cannot say later that we were not warned when we are being punished for our wrongdoings. We all have free will to do whatever we want. As per Quran, God will intervene when the test is over (Judgement Day)
Brother if you have more questions please research on it in good faith and you will definitely find answers to all your doubts. Everything about Islam is in public domain. Islam is not any secret society or a race or bloodline based cult of which you can never be a part of.
I also suggest you approach some good experts on theology. I am just a student of law and have read religions and personal law including of Islam as part of my law school curriculum.
Wish you all best! 💐😊👍🏽
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the same excuses Christians use for their unjust and ignorant god. aka “trust that our god is just, even though there is no evidence for this god or its justice at all”
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Since Wednesday is my best day of the week, I will indulge you a little further.
#1 As a student of law, I am sure you have heard of circular reasoning. God is benevolent because the Koran says god is benevolent & the Koran comes from god. How do you arrive at the conclusion that god’s justice is incomprehensible to us? IS it because the Koran says it?
You say Koran doesn’t permit killing non believers in peace time only during war. Are you in effect saying the section quoted in the post is not from the Koran? It prescribes killing non believers in Jihad, or as they call it, holy war. Why non believers specifically?
#3 You really are set on insulting my intelligence, aren’t you? Are you suggesting the wars of conquest said to have been led by Mohamed were all to bring order? Like waylaying caravans from Mecca or is it Medina?
#4 The Koran says it is the final revelation so Mak should believe the Koran is the final revelation because it says so in the Koran. Man, what do you take me for? You say it confirms what came before it but it contradicts the bible on the question of Jesus, it has Abraham building the Kaaba and so on that are in direct contradiction with the books it purports to confirm. I am certain you have heard of Thomas Paine. In his Age of Reason, a book I highly recommend, he has something about revelation you might want to check. Why, if as per the 2:256 there is no compulsion in religion, do Muslims kill apostates? Limit the rights of others to worship as they please? Assuming for an instant the Koran is only warning people what will befall them, why would an omnipotent and benevolent god even dream up such a cruel punishment?
When you say I should research in good faith, are you implying that hitherto I have been doing it out of malice? Do you know any expert on theology who will settle the question about the existence of god, it’s nature and their number? That is the one I would like to have audience with.
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Brother I promise all I said was not intended to hurt u. I come from non-muslim family and assume you too. The difference is that u do not look pleased with Quran but I have been impressed by its egalitarian character which is missing in my race and caste based society. When I was reading Quran, I never felt that it’s asking me to kill others unnecessarily or mercilessly. I don’t know why u thinking so negatively and so angry with Quran and stubbornly imagining yourself to be a non-believer on whom God will pour boiling water 😢. It reminds me of Quran chapter 2 verse 6 which says “As to those who reject faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn; they will not believe.”
But again, do not read it standalone, because there is another (Quran 16:125) which says-“Invite mankind to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better.”
You may see contradiction in that but I found dynamism and flexibility.
It appears, like beauty, reason and logic are also in the eyes of the beholder.
Best wishes 🙂
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You are an interesting fellow, why should I be pleased by the Koran. It is not any different from the bible; it has a bit of what is pleasant, a lot that is horrible and the like.
Have you heard of Raif Badawi? I guess the 1000 lashes he is to receive represent wisdom and fair preaching. What do I know, anyway?
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“This is the Book: There is no doubt about it. A perfect guidance for the God-revering, pious, who keep their duty to God.” (Al-Baqarah 2:2)
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Yes friend I have heard of Raif Badawi and and also of Jamal Khashoggi. Being Impressed by Quran does not mean supporting each and every act of each and every Muslim no matter how wrong, barbaric or unislamic it is. ☝️
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Is there anything in the Koran or hadith that in some way support the punishment being meted on Raif?
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Qur’an robustly upholds the system of fairness in justice delivery system (For reference u can see Qur’an 5:8). What happened to Jamal Khashoggi was wrong and same could be true of Badavi. Qur’an in no way prescribes such treatment to anyone. Not sure of Hadiths (have not read Hadiths in full) but in case of conflict between Qur’an and Hadith, Quran prevails. Please mind that Monarchy is prohibited in Islam. Extremeness in religion is also disproved of- Quran 5:77
Best wishes n have a good day👍
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all believers in this crap are sadists.
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we are reading it out of context.
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Here’s the verse that got me to convert to Islam: Quran (2:65-66): “Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.”
Gives me a big, fat stiffy every time I read this! The LOVE! The JOY! The GRANDEUR of this peaceful, kind, loving religion is beyond my words to describe! Ah, religion, what would we do without thee?
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You are sure you are not reading it out of context? It was revealed for a different time, don’t you know?
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Very true. Obviously I missed something because these words here simply can’t mean what they say. Right? 🙂
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You need to get a copy of believers’ manual
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Holy shit! I’ve been smited and didn’t even know it… for I am an ape 😉
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It’s is so comforting to know that there is room in hell for ALL the christians, jews AND muslims! That means that there is no room there for me. Therefore, I can go on a rampage and murder, steal, blaspheme, fornicate, rape and pillage all that I want and never worry about the “pains of hell!” Life can be so much fun, I think I need a heart attack so that I can rest and then return to having even more fun! Excuse me, fun needs my immediate attention! 🙂 Naked hugs!
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“If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of s***. …”
-Detective Rust Cohle, Bad Detective, Season 1
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🙂
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Hell awaits you my friend. There you will find Satan with pitchfork ready to have a heated conversation with you
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He’s shit-out-of-luck if he doesn’t know American Sign Language! 😉
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You will be so hot you will want to write do what you have in your mind
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Hmmm, “cannot be comprehended by human senses” but yet goes on about how well versed his comprehension is?
Religion, they want to have their cake and to eat it too. Amazing how they cannot see the twisted logic in the things they say and do.
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That’s the beauty of religion. When all else fails, context is a good defence
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“If you doubt what We have revealed to Our servant, produce one chapter comparable to it. Call upon your idols to assist you, if what you say be true. But if you fail (as you are sure to fail) then guard yourselves against the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the unbelievers.”
Quran 2:23-4
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I will convert soon, just not yet
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Bestest religion EVER!!!
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It’s the final revelation
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Yep. Mic drop!!!
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Still have some sinnin’ to finish, maka? Christianity, for one, loves deathbed conversions!
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A lot of sinning to do. Was it Augustine who said something in those lines?
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You all are forgetting one thing: These mere translations do not do justice to the peace and love of Allah and his Religion of Submission. Only if you learn to read in Arabic can you understand “guard yourselves against the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the unbelievers” is beautiful, simply beautiful in Allah’s only chosen language, Arabic.
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The book is only holy in Arabic. Other languages are profane
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His drivel is almost robotic in his preaching to us. That proves that Allah knows all and Muslim scientists invented robotics and aritificial intelligence 1,000+ years ago! Praise Allah, and Muhammad, the Bill Gates of the 9th Century!
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[…] via The religion of peace […]
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As you mention me specifically (why I’m not sure as there’s nothing unique about what I believe), I will add my penny’s worth. As was evident in the story of Job, your interpretation of what it was about was radically different from my interpretation. Yours was about the vanity of gods; mine was about how we as humans make unreasonable judgments about others. Who can say who’s right? Some Christians believe the Bible should be interpreted in a literal sense. For others it’s entirely allegorical, metaphorical and mythical, and must be understood in those terms. Some interpretations of the Bible result in hatred and untold harm. Other interpretations can result in the opposite. Again, who can say which is the “correct” interpretation?
I don’t think the Quran is any different. If someone interprets scripture (and I’m using a fairly loose definition of “scripture”, and it doesn’t matter of what religion) in a manner that helps them become a better person in your eyes than they would otherwise be, then who are you to determine that the “true” message is contrary to that person’s understanding?
The problem with ancient texts, is that they were composed in a world with radically different values than those we hold today. By our standards it was a brutal and savage world, no matter how refined they thought it was at the time, and the tools of story telling reflected that age. Quite frankly, I don’t care whether the original creators of scriptures intended them to be literal or allegorical. It’s what we do with them today that matters.
I admit I don’t know many Muslims, and the few I do, not particularly well, apart from a former work mate. His interpretation of his religion is considerably more tolerant and accepting of other belief systems than the typical Christian fundamentalist. In fact if one avoided asking him about his values in religious terms, he would be difficult to distinguish from most secular humanists. When my wife and I attended his wedding we were invited to sit with the men, whereas other women were seated separately. When my wife queried this arrangement, they were adamant that the segregation was not for religious reasons but for cultural reasons, and God would not be offended by my wife sitting with the men, although they conceded that some of the men might be. It seemed to me that much of what we assume to be dictated by religion is instead dictated by other reasons, and sometimes culture and custom lags well behind what is acceptable in religious terms.
As for what will happen to non believers, I take such descriptions with a pinch of salt, just like when I read of the obvious pleasure that inspiredbythedivine1 gets from devouring Christian babies. And I could possibly argue that he is worse as he doesn’t give the babies a chance to reach an age where they are capable of making a choice about their beliefs 🙂
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I don’t find anything to disagree with here, Barry.
A number of believers take their religious books as true for all time & this is problematic. Allegory is foreign to them.
I think for many Muslims, it’s difficult to draw the line between what is dictated by custom & what by religion as the religion encompassed all spheres of life. But I could be wrong
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Barry, you wrote: The problem with ancient texts, is that they were composed in a world with radically different values than those we hold today. This is so very true.
The problems arise because there are those who refuse to accept this and believe we should all still be living according to those values. And I might add — according to their interpretation of same.
Personally I don’t feel religion offers anything that can’t be found within ourselves. Why do people think we need a “supreme power” (in any of its varied forms) to answer to? Life just is.
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I don’t think we need a “supreme power”, but I can’t help but think that for better or worse, somewhere in our evolutionary past, religious or spiritual belief was a unifying factor that helped with our survival as a species.
I don’t believe there is anything – a deity, a consciousness, some sort of power or energy – outside of us, and as an autistic, I have great difficulty in reading emotions in others, yet I still experience something that I can only describe as “mystical” from time to time, and especially in a Quaker Meeting for Worship. I’m the first to agree that the “experience” is entirely the result of brain function, but that doesn’t change what it feels like or the effect it has on me.
I’m fortunate to live in one of the most secular nations on earth, and those that believe their interpretation of some ancient text is the only “true” interpretation are such a small (but growing) minority that (for now) they are more the butt of jokes than anything else. That doesn’t mean the majority are “true atheists”, it simply means that most people understand that religious or spiritual thought is a private matter open to individual interpretation, is speculative, and changes over time.
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I have no doubt you experience “something mystical” in your Quaker meetings. It’s not uncommon in this type of setting that people will emanate a certain “vibe” (for lack of a better word). It’s like a joining of minds and spirits. It can happen even in non-religious settings when individuals focus on a particular thought/idea/goal/etc., but it tends to be more evident in religious meetings.
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Thank you, Nan. One of the issues I have with “atheist purists” or as Sir Lloyd Geering would say, “atheist fundamentalists” is their claim that any such experience is “made up bullshit” as it is not verifiable or repeatable or capable of being measured scientifically. In other words they deny the reality of the experience. While I can accept the source of the experience might be nothing more than our individual or collective imagination, that doesn’t diminish the experience itself.
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I think for me, it is not that the experience cannot be verified but rather that no one should ask the next person to believe based on their own personal experience. That would be asking for too much, I think.
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I would agree.
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…like at a musical performance or even a dance.
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The problem is that the purists and ideologues seem to have more passion, more anger, more money (thanks, Saudi Arabia!) and feel THEY define the religion for EVERYONE. As others have noted, your version of Christianity would be heretical to the vast majority of American Christians (and Australian, it seems?) and that majority dictates what the religion means. And that majority view imagines all kinds of delectable PUNISHMENTS
I am also creeped out by these rote phrases the religiobots use. I know they are merely formalities, but given the realities of Islam in the world….they add a distasteful frisson.
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I can’t speak for Americans or Australians, but in Aotearoa New Zealand, those who think my beliefs are heretical are very few and far between in my experience. Purists and ideologues don’t hold much sway here as it’s not the “Kiwi way”. And that holds true for every endeavour in life, not just religion (although our faith in the superiority of the All Blacks over other national rugby teams might be an exception). Religion here is considered a private matter and open to individual interpretation. It’s only when that boundary is crossed that the topic of religion gets discussed.
Among the major Christian denominations in Aotearoa New Zealand, the number of believers who believe there is no God ranges from 6% to 45% depending on denomination, and among the rest, their understanding of God varies considerably from a being that one can communicate directly with, through some form of cosmic energy to an abstract concept that is difficult to define or explain. Those who believe in a deity that can actually manipulate the physical world or could punish non-believers are extremely small.
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’tis sad that New Zealand makes immigration so challenging, Barry! (The landscapes are so beautiful Although I have to say the quality of the built environment is somewhat…lacking…from photographs. As someone obsessed with architecture, New Zealand would be a challenge. 🙂 (I kid)
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Immigration is a challenge for us too. One in four New Zealanders are immigrants (compared to 1 in 7 in the US), and coping with such a high rate puts an enormous strain on our resources and infrastructure.
I guess our strict building code (thanks to earthquakes being so common here) does limit what can be done architecturally, but there is definitely a “kiwi style” that grows on those who live here. Besides with such beautiful scenery no matter which way you turn, who cares what buildings look like 🙂
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“I can’t help but think that for better or worse, somewhere in our evolutionary past, religious or spiritual belief was a unifying factor that helped with our survival as a species. ”
True point. Now, of course, it can be seen as one of the bigger threats, only overshadowed, of course, by the real Official State of the United States, Mammonism, or Late Stage Crony Capitalism.
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Now the biggest threat to ourselves is mass ignorance, conspiracy theories and yes, crony capitalism
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