to or not to a build a wall


I don’t live anywhere near a border neither do I deal with border security. Having said that, I disagree with Jim who thinks trumpsky should have his wall to stop illegal immigrants. I don’t think anyone should be called an illegal. They are migrants and that’s all. And while there are concerns that the host countries cannot handle all the refugees, which I think could be possible, but we have to agree that economic policies, some pushed by WTO have made the case of economic refugees worse. So instead of burying our heads in the sand and addressing a symptom, why not bravely ask the governments to address the real problems.

Nick Kolakowoski in his post lists a few examples of border walls and their successes while William Wilcox looks at the ideology behind border walls.

I am more inclined to this position

The solution, however, isn’t to create massive walls to tell these people that they are unwanted but to increase humanitarian aid abroad, in order to address the issues creating these refugees, while working to welcome the refugees at home.

though it ain’t humanitarian aid that is needed. The place to start is fair trade agreements, reducing armed conflicts around the world, encouraging multinationals that run sweatshops in third world countries to stop and start paying fair wages.

I am confident that all of you can come up with more humane ways to address the crisis than a border wall and a government shutdown. Besides, there are reports of trumpsky having undocumented workers in his various hotels giving credence to the claim that his wall is not really about US of A’s safe borders but could be a manifestation of his racism. But maybe I am wrong about trumpsky, the wall and everything else.

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About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

113 thoughts on “to or not to a build a wall

  1. Many from the US are crossing the border into Canada to get away from scump, plus we’ve taken in many from Syria, as well as the young teen from Saudi just a couple of days ago.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Ron says:

    According to DHS, those “migrants” contained at least 270 convicted felons.

    https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/11/01/myth-vs-fact-caravan

    But hey — when all those fabulous people living in communities around Hollywood Hills start granting these migrants free room and board within there enormous mansions, I’ll reconsider.

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      Well, I think it is to be expected that when a great mass of people move, even criminals would be among them.
      But I agree with you on the second point

      Liked by 2 people

    • john zande says:

      And the crimes of most of those, I heard, were nothing but trying (and failing) to cross at an earlier time. In other words, not exacxtly “criminals.”

      Liked by 2 people

      • Ron says:

        From the linked article:

        In fact, over 270 individuals along the caravan route have criminal histories, including known gang membership. Those include a number of violent criminals – examples include aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, armed robbery, sexual assault on a child, and assault on a female.

        Like

        • john zande says:

          Sure, a few. The *majority*, though, have committed nothing more than paper-crimes.

          I saw this ridiculous argument (and the numbers you cite) knocked down just a few days ago.

          Liked by 1 person

          • I just got back in from walking my dog and had to fight off 1.) 567 Hispanic caravans; 2.) 324 rape attempts, on both me AND my dog, by Hispanic immigrants; 3.) 237 attempts by illegal Hispanic immigrants to infest me with leprosy, and, lastly, but not least-ly, for a 20 minute dog walk, 4.) 987 illegal Hispanic immigrant terrorists with eye patches trying to sell me, and my dog, drugs. This is AWFUL!!! Why, oh why, do I have to live like this when a simple effing WALL along the entire southern border would keep me safe? Libtards, THAT’S why. I fucking HATE libtards. They’re making ‘Murica DANGEROUS. Well, that’s all for today. I’m off to practice my Russian so I’ll be ready when my hero, Draft-Dodger Donny, hands my country over to Russia for assimilation. $Amen$

            Liked by 5 people

          • john zande says:

            Exactly! Good to see you’re watching Fox News and listening to the *absolute truth* coming from our Lord and savior, Trump.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Absolutely. All media and news is FAKE!! Expect Fox News. Trump is more of a loving, falsely persecuted person than Jesus. Trump is love personified. He is my savior. He’s perfect. 😀

            Liked by 4 people

          • makagutu says:

            One day I hope I can get to watch Faux News for myself. And when I do, I hope I don’t crack my head for hitting it against a wall

            Like

          • Your brain will liquefy.

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            Those are many immigrants to deal with in one day and the libtards are doing nothing about it? Declare a war along the border

            Like

          • Ron says:

            According to media reports, hundreds of those people stormed the U.S. border and attempted to gain access illegally. Not exactly the actions one would expect from law-abiding citizens.

            Moreover, a Mexican official reported that of the 3500 people who crossed into Mexico, 1895 of those who were truly seeking refugee status did so immediately upon crossing the Mexican border. The rest refused Mexico’s offers of assistance and headed North towards the U.S. border.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Stormed because a rumour was spread that they had to cross right then and there to be processed.

            Honestly Ron, why are you repeating this KNOWN bullshit?

            Liked by 3 people

          • Ron says:

            The fact remains that a country has a right to defend its borders against intruders and legal immigrants wait to get processed.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            People turning up at the border is at it’s LOWEST since 2001.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Ron says:

            What does that have to do with the obligation to enter legally?

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Yes or No, Ron:

            Do you believe 4,000 terrorists were caught on the southern border?

            Yes, or No?

            Liked by 1 person

        • john zande says:

          …and to add, because the DHS changed the rules (making it a “crime” to present yourself for asylum) these people have, in fact, done NOTHING wrong.

          At least the US military is being honest.

          Newsweek: “MIGRANT CARAVAN: MILITARY HAS SEEN NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT 270 CRIMINALS FIGURE TOUTED BY WHITE HOUSE, DHS”

          https://www.newsweek.com/trump-criminals-migrant-caravan-troops-1209819

          So, why are you parrotting WH lies, Ron? That’s not like you.

          Liked by 2 people

          • Ron says:

            Let’s compare:

            DHS cited (and linked to) Mexican officials as its sources of information.

            Newsweek cited anonymous officials as its sources of information. The last time they did this they triggered a riot and had to apologize.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/15/AR2005051500605.html

            So unless you can demonstrate that the information supplied by Mexican border agents is erroneous, I’ll have to take their word over what’s reported by Newsweek.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            It’s pure BULLSHIT. You are spreading bullshit.

            I suppose you also believe 4,000 “terrorists” were caught on the southern border, right? That was the WH number, wasn’t it? 4,000.

            Want to know the actual number, or are you determined in your deliberate ignorance?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            The links have been provided. If you choose to deny the contents, you do so at your own peril.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            You’re linking the WH/DHS. It’s bullshit, as has been proven.

            Like

          • Ron says:

            The links to the Mexican sources are within the DHS link. And you haven’t proven anything.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            DHS is BULLSHIT.

            Or don you believe 4,000 terrorists were caught on the southern border?

            Do you: Yes or No?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            Repeating your opinion does not make it a fact. Follow the sources within the report.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Yes or No, Ron:

            Do you believe 4,000 terrorists were caught on the southern border?

            Yes, or No?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            My beliefs are irrelevant. Only the information given by the sources cited matters.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            No, not irrelevant at all. It’s the source of your “information.”

            Yes or No, Ron:

            Do you believe 4,000 terrorists were caught on the southern border?

            Yes, or No?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            The source of the information is from the Mexican officials linked to in the report.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Yes or No, Ron:

            Do you believe 4,000 terrorists were caught on the southern border?

            Yes, or No?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            Asked and answered. Your deflection to engage the facts is duly noted.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Not answered. Because you know you’re just spreading misinformation, like the 4,000 TERRORISTS caught on the southern border.

            Liked by 1 person

          • john zande says:

            Did you even read the NW article. Your Mexican source is bullshit. There are no official figures cited, or any indication WHERE the number came from

            While the release does not indicate where the information comes from, it does reference an October 29 NPR interview with Geronimo Gutierrez, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., describing the caravan members as “very violent,” adding, “Unfortunately, some of the people in the caravan have been very violent against authority, even though they have offered the possibility of entering in compliance with immigration law and refugee status.”

            All Bullshit, like the 4,000 terrorists.

            Like

          • Ron says:

            Yes. So much bullshit that the Canadian government issued travel advisories for the Northern states of Mexico “due to high levels of criminal activity, as well as demonstrations, protests and occasional illegal roadblocks throughout the country.”

            https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/mexico

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Sorry Ron, that does not support your BS mexican “sources” concerning the migrants. Read the article. The DHS statement cites only the ambassador and a bloody radio interview… No sources cited in either. You’re parroting a Trump talking point like a complete sucker, just like the FOUR THOUSAND terrorists caught on the southern border. This is really not like you at all. What’s going on? Why this sudden dive into the utterly absurd?

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            I have added a youtube clip to the post and i think you will like it

            Liked by 1 person

          • Ron says:

            As far as I know, the Canadian government isn’t under the control of the WH, John. It supports the claim that there are criminal elements in Mexico living in close proximity to the U.S. border. Hence the need for enhanced border security to keep them out.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Ron, why are you trying to conflate crime in *Mexican states* with the composition of the asylum seekers travelling from central America?

            You do see the lunacy of this, don’t you?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            There’s no conflation. The U.S. needs to vet everyone who crosses over. Law-abiding citizens will go through the proper channels and are welcome. The rest are not. Simple as that.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Yes there is! You’re pointing to crime rates in Mexican states, by Mexicans, against Mexicans… Presumably drug related given their proximity to the US-buyers market.

            You’re painting asylum seekers *from* central America as criminals for simply having to PASS THROUGH Mexican hotspots.

            That’s insane, and well below you.

            Like

          • Ron says:

            The migrants stormed into Mexico over the bridge. You can’t tell who’s who until they’ve been thoroughly vetted by immigration — no exceptions. Besides which, Mexico itself has already deported hundreds.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Oh for goodness sake.

            Reality check: More terror suspects have entered the U.S. from Canada than from Mexico

            https://globalnews.ca/news/4824976/us-mexico-border-terrorists-canada/

            Ron, do you support the errection of a northern border wall to address the very real threat of terrorism?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            Well, given the current Canadian Prime Minister’s penchant of granting uncritical welcome to everyone who enters the country, it might be advisable.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            OK, so you support a wall with Canada.

            Make it so.

            Liked by 1 person

          • john zande says:

            Yes or No to a northern border wall due to the EXTREME danger of the people crossing from Canada?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            Already answered.

            Liked by 1 person

          • john zande says:

            Yep, and that wall should be built first considering the actual danger.

            Do you agree?

            Like

          • Ron says:

            No. I submit that all potential points of illegal entry should be secured simultaneously, be they land, air or sea. Unfortunately, some politically-motivated constituents have taken leave of their senses when it pertains to matters of providing for the common defense and general welfare of the United States as outlined in the U.S. Constitution.

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Sorry. Considering the actual danger is terrorists pouring across the Canadian border, the US MUST erect the northern wall first…. Or isn’t US security important?

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Question: Given far more terrorists (actual terrorists this time) are caught coming across the US-Canada border, do you support a northern border to stop this clear problem?

            Like

          • john zande says:

            Or do you believe 4,000 *terrorists* were caught on the southern border?

            That was WH/DHS figures, too…

            Liked by 1 person

          • Nan says:

            So curious, Ron … am I to surmise from these comments that you support a border wall?

            If so, I trust you have considered that immigrants are extremely innovative — as has been demonstrated by underground tunnels and the transfer of “illicit” items (and people) via automotive carriers.

            Liked by 1 person

          • john zande says:

            Seems Ron is off the reservation on this one. I’m waiting for him to claim next that 4,000 terrorists were caught on the southern border.

            Like

          • Ron says:

            Yes. I do support a border wall. As does anyone with common sense. As to the efficacy of border security: people are extremely innovative at breaking into houses. Should we forgo taking security measures that lesson the likelihood of them gaining unlawful entry, as well?

            Like

          • Nan says:

            Hardly a comparison, IMO.

            Actually, I’m pretty amazed you’ve been taken in by the propaganda expressed by the president and what he’s “approved” for publication on the government website. You have always seemed to be more levelheaded in your outlook.

            Curious — do you believe the government shutdown is an effective action for Trump to take simply to honor his campaign promise related to a border wall?

            Liked by 3 people

          • Ron says:

            I think it’s a valid comparison. If you don’t vet who’s crossing your borders you end up with the immigration problems now facing Western Europe.

            To the extent it’s possible, my information is always gleaned from the original source and I seldom cite the MSM unless they provide links to the original source.

            We won’t know whether the shutdown is an effective strategy until November 3, 2020. But as it stands right now, I would venture to say it’s not.

            Like

  3. foolsmusings says:

    You’re not wrong. Everything you say is on point. We treat people in developing counties as our serfs and then turn them away at our borders when they try to escape the oppressive regimes that we helped facilitate.

    Liked by 2 people

    • makagutu says:

      I read a while back that those in the 3rd world should not complain about the west hobnobbing with despots because we give them these leaders and so what do we expect of them?

      Like

  4. “..but could be a manifestation of his racism.” Could be? Could be? Yeah, it could be. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  5. You’re not wrong about Trump and his wall.

    The place to start is fair trade agreements, reducing armed conflicts around the world, encouraging multinationals that run sweatshops in third world countries to stop and start paying fair wages.

    That’s a great place to start.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Tish Farrell says:

    I read that the majority of so-called illegal immigrants to the US, fly there. They simply outstay their visas. Not sure how you build a wall to keep out people who arrive legally and then become illegal later. Bonkers all round.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. “Do you believe 4,000 terrorists were caught on the southern border?” That’s wrong. It’s 4003. I REALLY wish they’d get these facts right. I was just outside again with my dog. 6007 illegal Hispanic immigrants in a caravan stormed and attacked me. Every day of my life, I’m hounded, attacked, raped, beaten and killed by Hispanic, illegal immigrants who’ve STORMED into America for one reason only: We don’t have a wall and/ or gas chamber system along our southern border. Furthermore, what’s too often left out of the discussion on the southern border is the tens of thousands of Canadians bringing leprosy, AIDS, heroin, and sick goats into our country from Vancouver and Toronto. Again, why does this happen? Again, the answer is an easy one: No wall/gas chamber system along our northern border. The data I provided here is sound, real, not hyperbole, and anyone not agreeing with it simply does not know how to discern REAL facts from fake ones. Want real facts? Ask Trump, me, Pence, or any other TRueMuricanChristian you meet and we’ll give ’em to ya.

    I’m running for Senate in 2020. When I win, I promise to build walls, gas chambers, and crematoriums along our southern and northern borders to defend ‘Murica from illegal Hispanic immigrants, Canadians, the poor, and fucking libtards in general. A vote for IBTD1 in 2020 is a vote against being anally raped by an illegal, Hispanic caravan member, a Canadian, or a disabled poor person. Make ‘Murica proud again. MMPA! Vote for IBTD1 in 2020! $Amen$

    Liked by 4 people

  8. Hey Mak, I hope everything’s fine where you are. Just heard about the goings on in Nairobi.

    With regards to the wall, it has a good chance of being dog-whistle racism (although one can never be 100% certain, as that’s the point of dog-whistling). Regardless, it’s an attempt to create a controversy of government shutdown to paint the incoming Democratic House in a negative light. Extreme right-wing people have the added benefit of believing a government shutdown = spending less money.

    Sadly, nobody in our current power structure (that’s both parties) really has a plan for treating the world more fairly. It would involve helping other countries maintain stable power structures, equitable displacement of wealth, and balanced trade. I’m not sure any of that is possible in today’s current political environment. In many ways, we’re still operating under a system of international relations established in Europe back in the early 19th century (Congress of Venice, to be specific). How can equity be established if people making decisions aren’t able to see things equally?

    Liked by 1 person

    • makagutu says:

      Hey SB,
      How is the new calendar this far? Good to see you here and your comments on the wall. As you a bipartisan agreement is needed to resolve the border security issue and a lot has to be done to check the flow of migrants.

      Liked by 2 people

      • My new year is going alright.

        Common sense still isn’t prevailing, unfortunately. I’ve got family that supports a border wall. It’s easy to want if one dehumanizes migrants. I’ve been doing my best to show how migrants are people too, in search of a better life.

        Liked by 1 person

      • basenjibrian says:

        We can already see the effectiveness of the fair and balanced approach. Mexico has seen its economy grow into “second world” status, and as John Z pointed out above, net migration from Mexico is dropping. Despite the drug gang violence.

        Like

  9. maryplumbago says:

    One more article to refute a lot of the trump cult’s false claims.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/08/trump-fact-check-speech-immigration-border-security

    Liked by 3 people

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