Caroline in this post writes that their belief in god demands that they consider homosexuality as objectively immoral.
She goes on to write
The funny thing is, many if not most of those who advocate for the legitimacy, normalcy, and morality of homosexuality also reject God as a moral lawgiver. So they have no objective standard by which to judge its moral status. And without an objective, transcendent standard, they likewise cannot judge the morality of opposing homosexuality.
Religion and by extension, its gods and angels are not the sources of our morality. We act morally because we have reason and are social beings. Without the need to exist in social groups, it is unlikely we would have developed any moral codes.
No man is responsible for his make. So, if we are creatures of god(s), how we turn out is god’s problem, they should deal with it.
It seems Caroline plays fast and loose with her bible to defend whatever position she wants. The good book does says in Luke 6:37, and I am certain Caroline takes these as the words of Jesus
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
In the Euthyphro dilemma, Socrates asks if what is moral is so because god commands it or god commands it because it is moral. Depending on your answer to this question either what is moral depends on god’s whim or god has no control over what is moral.
In a world governed by an omnipotent god, one who only need utter a word and it be done, can one act against such a god’s will? At what point is god freed from being responsible for things done by its minions in a world where it has absolute power and sovereignty?
Random thoughts 
That last line is a good one, Mak. A serious question. But at the same time I’m having a weird vision: Fox News are on the case.
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I think these people do not actually think through the claims they make for their god and what they let their god get away with
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In the words of Henry Ford:
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Some Christians are a funny lot; they are convinced their god must be as bigoted as they are or worse
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That Yahweh is their god of choice speaks volumes. Garbage in, garbage out.
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And Harrison Ford once said this to his gardener, Betsy Tooloose, “Betsy, most people out there in the galaxy are dang blad idjits!”
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Is there anyone whose great quotes you don’t have?
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So that’s where all my great quotes went. I had wondered. I guess IBTD1 can keep them. He’ll probably make better use of than I could.
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I think he has stolen even your future quotes
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I don’t think there’s any doubt about that!
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Christianity’s problem is that their God of the Bible doesn’t have an objective moral standard either.
“Thou shalt not kill (murder)” then he tells Israel to kill (murder) the people in Canaan or Amalekites or whoever he says to kill. He’s “prolife” and anti abortion or infanticide, anti rape and adultry…then he kills David and bathshebas child rather than punish David for rape and adultry… and murdering Uriah.
The moral standard of the God of the Bible is whatever he happens to say to do or not to do at that particular moment. Not an objective, set standard. Especially not for Himself.
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I agree with your observations.
I have read of men and women who justify the Canaanite massacre on the grounds that god created them and so can decide what happens to them.
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you are entirely correct. Caroline’s supposed morality is based on nothing more than might equals right. To decide what is moral and what is not dependent on what the actor is, is the definition of subjectivity.
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I think she must be a William Craig follower; he of the divine command theory. Whatever god commands is good. Problem is god stopped speaking a long while back, how are we to navigate in the 21st century
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I’m pretty sure she is. such thoughtless sycophants have caused much grief in history.
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I think they must have ranked highly among the inquisitors
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I’m guessing that Caroline would describe as “un-Christian” the 1992 Statement of Affirmation of Same-Sex Relationships made by Quakers in Aotearoa. Personally I think it’s more “Christian” than her stance, but then I might be biased 🙂
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That’s very un-Christian
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In case she is the type to not post things that disagree with her point of view, this is what I said in response:
The funny thing is, many if not most of those who advocate for the legitimacy, normalcy, and morality of homosexuality also reject God as a moral lawgiver. So they have no objective standard by which to judge its moral status. And without an objective, transcendent standard, they likewise cannot judge the morality of opposing homosexuality.
I take issue with this claim here for several reasons, not the least of which is that you have no evidence that those who reject God as a moral lawgiver have no objective standards. Of course I can give no evidence myself beyond anecdotal experience but I can speak for many people I know who reject God as a moral lawgiver that we do have standards. One of those standards would be measure the behavior by the societal harm it causes. Does a small percentage of the population engaging in homosexuality cause any harm to society or individuals within the society? I would agree that if all people engaged in homosexual relationships only then this would be problematic from a survival standpoint, but clearly this isn’t the case. If the relationships are consenting then there is no harm to individuals. Yes there are non-consensual relationships and the spread of STDs but these are also present in heterosexual relationships so this is a separate problem. I would also add that I put the right of personal self-determination as an important standard as long as that self-determination does no harm to others. Dictating what consensual relationships (providing a person is of an age or ability to give consent) may engage in tends to have an adverse impact on society, so giving people the freedom to choose the loving relationships they participate in seems morally right.
The second problem with your statement here is that you say God an objective standard. I mean what you are really doing is giving God a position of authority and just assuming that everything He says is right and wrong is right and wrong. This is not objective. If we give authority to a dictator that dictator may have unjust laws yet we follow based on the authority given. That doesn’t make the dictator objectively right, just that the dictator has authority. If we look at what God did to Job in the bible, if any human did that to another person we would by any standard say this was morally wrong, but if God does it, well then I guess it’s okay. So again God is given authority, but is not objectively right. In fact God is only subjectively right because you apply a different standard to God than you would to other intelligent and sentient beings.
Finally what is precisely wrong with subjective standards? Certainly this can be bad sometimes, but let’s say my current knowledge of the world leads me to believe there is nothing wrong with the extraction and burning of fossil fuels, but then I come to understand that it does harm to the environment. I would then change my standard because perhaps the long term harm to life by burning fossil fuels is now greater than the harm of not having unlimited availability of energy to power society. Standards can evolve through time to improve human life and well being.
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Generally she allows comments but hardly responds to heathens. You know being unequally yoked and all.
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Well she responded twice to me…didn’t get anywhere…but she responded. lol
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I would also add that the so-called eternal, immutable “objective” standards demanded by God of us sure seem to evolve over time. Just as they would if morality was human-generated. See: Slavery. Or, given the horrible movement of the Overton Window back to the 11th century, is Caroline a fan of “The Peculiar Institution”? If not, what objective, Biblical, God-given reason can she make this claim? I don’t think she can. Maybe Caroline should sell her children into slavery?
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Absolutely, and I’ve made that argument before as well, I just didn’t feel like putting even more time into it if she is the type to not post the response and/or not reply. lol
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Those god’s rules are they fixed?
Is murder wrong at all times? What if you had made a promise to god to kill the first living thing you meet after he grants you victory and there comes your daughter? Do you say killing as bad or as this is a sacrifice it is permissible?
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To scrutinize and thoroughly plow under any belief based on belief is a noble and quite moral thing to do. Nicely done.
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I left this comment:
What shall we do with homosexual animals, those that live in life-long same sex relationships, like Laysan albatrosses?
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Those animals are not trying to go to heaven and besides, they are not the apex of creation. Don’t you know?
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Animals don’t go to heaven!?!
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Well, as Mark Twain wrote, if heaven was by merit, dogs would go first.
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There’s a great part in the Mahabharata where Yudhisthira (I think?) refuses to pass into heaven if he can’t take his dog with him.
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I had to lookup the story John Z mentioned: https://www.storypick.com/yudhishthira-and-dog-story/ an interesting story of loyalty and kindness
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It’s such a beautiful story, thanks for doing the work of searching and sharing the link
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I need to show it to my mom. she’s a real animal lover and that’s the one thing that bothers her about Christianity
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There is another beautiful story of the fall of man from I think Hindoo sources and it is retold by Ingersoll I think in skulls
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Why we should stone them, John. Or maybe pour boiling oil on their sinful heads.
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Good call. I’ll do the albotrosses, but someone else will have to do the Walruses.
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Send ’em to Mike Pence’s house in herds.
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All I can say is that I’m just sick and tired of these Christian people and their delusions that allow them to be downright hateful, arrogant and in many cases, quite dangerous.
If religious feelings would have been built into DNA or brain chemistry in some way to cause a feeling of reverence and care for the earth and all its beauty and fellowship towards all people, think how different it would all be.
Instead we have this perverted worship of a monster who knows no morals..a worship based on fantasy and a desire to feel superior and righteous.
I don’t know if the evolution of this is still evolving, but it has been hijacked by the power and control of religion.
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It must have been Nietzsche who said there is not enough love to waste any on the gods. Caroline and her group of christians ought to, if anything, to learn this.
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As a man without morals and morality who is married to another man without morals and morality, I can for a fact state that we, together, make it *our* business and duty to go out of our way to alleviate the hardship and suffering of others. Our immoral existence is, in fact, filled with others of the same ilk. I’d much rather be myself than a pontificating hypocrite such as those who claim to be “believers.” Naked hugs!
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and that’s how you go to hell, on the wide road
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The wide road allows for many travellers, my Kenyan brother. I am certain to be in the company of the best! 🙂
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Caroline is just one more thoughtless Christian, who has to convince herself that her petty hatreds are approved of by some god.
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It’s a good thing when your god hates the same people you hate
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Great post Mak. I do love me some called out, illogical, sick and twisted, bigoted hypocrisy, in the morning. Love the way you highlighted this asshat x-Ian for what they really are.
Great comments on this one as well.
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Thanks my shelldigger friend.
A god who hates the same things we hate must not be a great god
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“Depending on your answer to this question either what is moral depends on god’s whim or god has no control over what is moral.” Superb comment. I wanna here the apologists answer this one.
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I am shocked, shocked, to find that hypocrisy is going on in Christendom!
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heh. It always seems to be the most hateful and fearful of Christians who are most sure that their god reflects them, and who dig through the bible to find the worst parts. Of course, Caroline can’t be bothered to kill those people who dare work on the sabbath (whenever that is since Christians can’t agree).
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They must be so sure. Without justification from God and from the Bible, their fearfulness, hatefulness, and bigotry are nakedly exposed for all to see… including themselves.
What a miserable way to live – to constantly seek reassurance for their malevolence from only a hypothetical invisible being and from a single two thousand year-old book of mythology.
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I am doubtful such people as Caroline see themselves as hateful
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Exactly, their faith is blinding.
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I don’t think it’s entirely correct to to say that Christians can’t agree on which day is the Sabbath. As far as I can ascertain most Christians recognise that the Sabbath goes from sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday. The argument is over whether or not that specific period must be reserved for the Christian Holy Day. If you search online, you can find a multitude of reasons why early Christians might have chosen Sunday. But I’m not a Christian, so what do I know?
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My question on this has always been since some of the Christians say gods reckon time differently & 1000days and a day are no different, how do they reconcile these contradictory ideas?
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I suppose what they mean is that an all knowing god can see into eternity so time is irrelevant.
On the other hand maybe their god has the same problem I have in that I am unable to sense the passing of time. I can’t tell whether 5 minutes or 5 hours have passed without the aid of a clock. Perhaps their god has the same issue as me except on a cosmic scale 🙂
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An all knowing god would know some people would bee gay and either made it impossible to be gay or not provide any reason for its condemnation, but then, what do i know about all knowing?
Without a clock, telling whether an hour has passed would be work unless you are out observing the length of shadows. On a cosmic scale, hard work!
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I only need to be able determine time because of other people, it makes no difference to me. If there’s only one god, there’s no others that he/she/it needs to interact with so time wouldn’t matter. It’s all so obvious Mak. I thought someone of your intelligence wouldn’t need my help to work all this out by yourself 🙂
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Hahaha Barry. God would need to know when to answer prayers, or send an earthquake to kill gays and hurricane to kill atheists
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Presbyterians say that the sabbath is Sunday as do every other sect I’m aware of. That’s when we went to church. How are you defining sabbath because what you said seems to be the Jewish sabbath.
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Precisely. Most Christians I know acknowledge this and give various reasons why Sunday was chosen to be their holy day. The others haven’t given it any thought and simply assume that the Sabbath and Sunday are synonymous.
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to them they are.
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It seems the Christians you know and the Christians I know would make very uncomfortable bedfellows
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ain’t that the truth 🙂
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no doubt about this. and the same would be true for most of the Christians I know
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Why shocked? As far as I am aware, all Christians are human, and their institutions are run by humans. Therefore they are no less likely to fall prey to human folly than any other person. And from my personal experience hypocrisy is is just as rife among non-Christians as among Christians. In fact the only person completely free of hypocrisy is myself 🙂
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Bob is being facetious.
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I gathered as much, hence the last sentence regarding my lack of hypocrisy 😊
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There is always room for repentance, penance or better still indulgences
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