The opposing side: religion is a creation of the shrewd man who sought nothing more than the imposition of order on a naive people (social control)
The proposal: religion is a bottom up process, driven by early humanity’s desire to understood the natural world.
Take a side and make your case.
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Probably a bit of both.
Every early tribe had its witch doctor/shaman or medicine man – one who may have been able to enter a trance-like state and mumble stuff like a Pentecostal on speed.
Pretty soon he was the Main Man to consult as why the crops failed or succeeded, or why the need for extra ground rhinoceros horn.
Funny hats and bead shakers were mandatory and before you know it we have religion. And the rest is history.
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Ark, did you ever participate in mock debates? You are very bad at it😀
But you have a point. There could be a shaman evolving to organised religion.
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No, there was never a debate club at our school.
Yes, I imagine I am(would be ) lousy at it
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That school should be closed(I know it is late in the day) and your money refunded 😀
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Was a state school in the UK. No school fees.
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Double tragedy, my friend!
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It was all right.
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Religion started off with high ideals but got hijacked and became another broken man-made institution.
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In this view, the founders, if we can call them that, didn’t intend to use it either for control or to mint dollars as creflo dollar does?
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I believe every religion – more accurately “religious practices” – evolved. Along the way, it got “founded” by a bunch of self-serving people who then codified it to meet their ends. What ends? Control, power and money.
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I would venture that the evolution into a scheme of control and wealth happened very, very early in the history of “faith”.
Detective Thomas Papania: You figure it’s all a scam, huh? All them folks? They just wrong?
Rust Cohle: Oh yeah! Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey, “He said for you to give me your fucking share.” People… so goddamn frail they’d rather put a coin in the wishing well than buy dinner.
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I think it is with the development of a codified religion that it became possible to use it as a tool for control
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Control and money. Look at the priests in the old testament dictating the best offer should go to the gods for whom they are the representative
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religion is a bottom up process hijacked by the first conmen who saw how easy it was to bend people by appealing to their emotional insecurities.
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Could it not be that the first religious people were the conmen? So that it is not a hijacking of a noble thing but a continuation of the con tradition?
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Could’ve been, but I suspect the frightened people came first.
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This is highly likely. Or maybe they were not frightened but thought there must be a world elsewhere as they experienced in their dreams.
I am curious as to how the omni ideas would have come about especially given nothing of experience has these properties
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Progression. My dad is stronger than your dad. Oh yeah, well my dad is soooo strong he…
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This is an interesting way to look at it
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I agree with the bottom up process, but I’m not so sure the “con men” part applies to every religion. I think a fair number of religious leaders simply possess the charisma to infect others with their own superstitious beliefs to form a cult following.
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True, bit of a broad brush. To be honest, I was thinking more later versions of religion; one’s that grew in larger societies as opposed to small clans.
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This view is possible especially if we are talking about pre literate societies, which must have been the case in the early days
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I totally agree. Spiritualism came first and was born from human ignorance about the cosmos, then came institutional religion which served the desire to control the masses.
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Messlier argued that when our ancestors talked about spirit, they had some fixed idea attached to it. The spiritualist of today is a confused element
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I would agree with the sentiment expressed here in that I think the origins of religion were an honest attempt to understand the natural world. I think it takes some observation to see how people utilize a philosophy to figure out how to co-opt it for your own gain. What I’m not sure of is whether or not, by the time the Bible was assembled, if that necessarily represents some sort of honest attempt to understand nature. The books of the Bible were chosen for specific reasons, and I don’t think they were chosen purely for altruistic purposes. Given the importance of the Bible to its followers, its not unreasonable to think that modern Christianity is built upon a book that was largely assembled for political goals in mind. I think the same might be true of the Koran as well given that Muhammad was also a head of state.
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The bible has a geo- politico- theological themes and I don’t think can be said to have been an honest attempt to understand the world. It is in many ways invented history
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This whole conversation is ridiculous. “Religion” was given to us by Allah, the One, True God and is not in any way a human creation. The Koran says so. Any discussion other than one involving the proper way to worship Allah and follow His Holy Book, The Koran, is evil, fruitless, and just wrong. Sorry Christians. You all picked the WRONG god. (How ’bout THIS for debating skills, Mak!) 🙂
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This is out of topic 😀. You are worse than Ark.
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There is NO topic but Allah. All others are meaningless. (Damn! I LOVE arguing this way. I’m always right and others are always wrong NO MATTER WHAT!!! I love being an apologist for Allah!)
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You make a good apologist for Islam
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I hear that Donald Trump needs a new Press Secretary, inspired. It pays well!
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Jeff would win the Pulitzer prize if he became press secretary
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I already have!
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So it is the Nobel committee that have failed in their duty
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The bastards!
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Sent him my resume today! 🙂 “Nuttin’ wrong here folks! Move along! Move along!” Wadda ya think?!
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we wish you well
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I think that the idea of social control was the ultimate intent upon the minds of those who created any type of belief system. Control the masses and just sit back and watch your material possessions multiply. As a secondary thought, greed is probably an almost equal reason for creating beliefs. Naked hugs, my Kenyan brother! 🙂
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Jesus and God are real because I saw Jesus in my dreams. This was right after God spoke to me. Honest! I heard him clear as my hearing aids would allow.
Te other contributors here who claim these two aren’t real are just jealous that I’ve had a “heavenly” experience and they haven’t.
And all other religions are real too because their adherents say so and who would know better?
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Best argument of the day! You win the internet for today with that one, Nan! 🙂
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There are arguments that knock you out, that’s one of them
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You have ended the debate!
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