Unbelievable? Chapter 7


On suffering

Justin wants you to know that god is present in your suffering and sees the future even if you can’t. So stop complaining.

An argument has been made by theists and Justin repeats it, that why do atheists complain about suffering if we live in an indifferent world. This question does seem to me to miss the point. The atheist is telling the theist, you have made such and such claims about the universe and were that the case, the following should be expected as matter of course. In an indifferent universe, suffering is embedded in the nature of the universe. In a world with an omnibenevolent being, suffering is allowed to exist. And if that is the case, then either god is not willing or not able to eradicate suffering.

Justin says because there are many arguments for god, god must exist. No argument would be necessary for god were the existence of god obvious.

He quotes this statement of CS Lewis

My argument against god was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust. A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust.

Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, my argument against god collapsed too- for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancy. Thus in the very act in trying to prove god did not exist, in other words that whole reality was senseless, I found was forced to assume that one part of reality- namely, my idea of justice- was full of sense.

First, was he a theist or atheist? Leaving that aside, do we really need transcendence to say this is not fair? Is a toothache the order of things so that one can’t complain if they have a toothache? Must a god be posited to claim that a toothache is pointless? My idea of justice as a reasonable person leads me to the conclusion that we live in an indifferent universe where unless humanity works together to alleviate the suffering of others, their pain and burden becomes unbearable.

Jeff’s favorite argument. Freewill. Justin wants us to believe that it would be a greater evil for god to intervene, which we are told he has done before, than to allow freewill. Basically, we are told to accept that god is inadequate in coming up with scenarios where we maintain our idea of freewill without causing harm to others or ourselves. Where is omnipotence and omniscience when you need it? To Justin it was better in the eyes of god for the African holocaust to happen because of freewill than to intervene to stop it. How many of you find this argument convincing?

Justin says we live in a spiritual war zone and also that suffering draws people to god. I don’t know about you. But for me, there is no logical contradiction in a world where there is a god and there is no suffering. There is nothing that would come in the way of an omnipotent god who wanted to draw people to himself. No human connivance would prevent this from happening.

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

40 thoughts on “Unbelievable? Chapter 7

  1. Mordanicus says:

    Has it ever occurred to Justin that he might actually worship the devil?

    Liked by 2 people

  2. judyt54 says:

    This entire argument has as many holes in it as a strainer.

    God exists in folks’ minds because some people need a Santa Claus. He’s the explanation for weather, for ‘things that just happen”, the excuse for near misses and ‘miraculous recoveries’, he’s the whipping boy for failed dreams (god’s will, dontcha know) and bad marriages. He’s the excuse, not the reason, like your little sister’s imaginary friend.

    It may be there is such a fuss about this right now because we’re growing up as a culture who in many cases have learned to find the doorknob without praying over the door first.

    And if you want to believe in the ‘right god’ you will dress him up to BE the right god. He’s customizable.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. makagutu says:

    Finding the doorknob without prayers! Now that’s a good one

    Liked by 1 person

  4. john zande says:

    Let’s see Justin explain animal suffering…

    Liked by 1 person

  5. renudepride says:

    I suffer, therefore, I believe? That makes no sense whatsoever. If we all indeed suffer, then why even bother with believing? ๐Ÿ™‚ Naked hugs!

    Like

  6. “Justin says we live in a spiritual war zone and also that suffering draws people to god.”

    this is nothing more than coercion, if an omnipotent god allows harm just so people have to come to it.

    How sick and disgusting.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Ubi Dubium says:

    “But for me, there is no logical contradiction in a world where there is a god and there is no suffering.”

    I’ve heard this rebuttal to the theists who claim “free will” to explain suffering.
    In heaven, is there any suffering? (Theist answer “No.”)
    In heaven, is there any free will? (Theist answer, usually, is “Yes.”)
    So it is possible for your god to create a place where humans can exist, have free will, and yet not have suffering. The “free will” argument just doesn’t work, under their own system.

    Liked by 2 people

    • makagutu says:

      Oh yes.
      This argument removes the rug from under their feet literally.
      This book is utterly bad. In it he claims to have invited famous atheists to his show over the years but he does not address for example Ruse’ argument nor address the conclusions of Nick Trakkakis (?) On the problem of evil.

      Liked by 2 people

    • basenjibrian says:

      I don’t understand this argument. Even the most fervid believer will acknowledge that his fellow believers (with free will) still SIN. So, even if we accept that the heavenly free-will bearing elect have been ‘perfected” so that they always freely refrain from sin in heaven, why did not God create us this way to begin with? Why create Sin in the first place?

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Justin is a twit. Period.

    Like

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