On my friend Ark’s blog there is a discussion or is it a narrative on where the burden lies in the god debate. And I generally agree with him. However, I think, and our late friend *my atheist life* would agree, we can say there is no god and the burden of proof doesn’t switch to us. Why so, you might ask, first, no coherent definition of a god has been provided that would demonstrate such a being(s) would exist. There are contradictory attributes of alleged gods that such beings are unlikely to exist. Whether such beings are necessary and in what manner of existence they are to exist have not been demonstrated. And attempts have been made to do this.
I know my empiricist friends wouldn’t commit themselves to such a statement arguing, among other reasons, new evidence may convince us otherwise. That is all fair. But until this evidence is adduced, we have nothing to go on with and as the good priest Jean Messlier wrote, to believe in God(s) is to believe in a chimera with no parallel in experience.
But I could be wrong
Random thoughts 
Maybe it all boils down to the notion of creation/creator?
You are aware of the argument about a wind and a 747 being spontaneously built from scrapyard parts etc?
So we look at a chair we have made, for example, and apply a similar reasoning to the universe. Or at least the religious folk do.
And I imagine we all did once upon a time until the advent of ‘proper’ science.
Now one can confidently assert no evidence has ever been presented to support the theist claims regarding their god.
But, personally, I consider I have no firm basis to assert that, ”no god exists” … he / it /she may still be out there, hiding in Graceland or lurking in my veggie patch or skulking on Mars or even in an alternate universe that Captain Kirk and Spock have yet to discover.
Meantime, God basks in the glorification bestowed upon him … sorry .. Him, with a capital Huh? by the minions who invented him and those poor saps who are indoctrinated to do likewise. …
Amen?
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I have seen those arguments. They have glaring weakness. How does a designed universe and undesigned look like? We say a thing is designed because we know the ends which it is meant to serve. Nobody says a sand dune is designed or a waterfall but they are gorgeous!
God has been invented and looks mostly like its creators
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Should I go look (for him … oops .. Him) in my veggie garden?
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“Nobody says a sand dune is designed or a waterfall but they are gorgeous!” So am I!!! And far too few people are talking about it!
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The part about you being a cutie is new. Maybe that explains the radio silence
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Never let the apologist get away with simply saying “God.” If they want me to disprove “God” they must first name it, and list the claims made by/attributed to this God… then you take it one by one.
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That is always a challenge that is hardly taken up. It is assumed when someone says god, everyone knows what they mean
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…and so begins the tedious dance…
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I like to dance even though I have two left feet
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I couldn’t dance in Australia, but I can in Brazil.
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So if I moved to Brazil I could dance?
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Impossible not to 🙂
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Name it? You mean call it by it’s given name? Yahweh?
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If that’s the fellow they wish to peddle.
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BLASPHEMER!!!! I’m warning you, if you say Jehovah once more . . .
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Are there any women here today?
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Nope. Just transgendered women pretending to be men
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You are WRONG good sir. They are all members of one of the 150 genders, many of which we cannot even name yet. Because we are ALL “special”.
Meanwhile, despite my transchronological state, I am preparing for my retirement in a few weeks. Even though I “identify” as 23, alas, my drivers’ license says “58”.
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Start a petition man, you can’t retire so soon when you still have many years left in your youth
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I want anyone to show me where yhwh has omni properties. I will wait
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He’s omni-invisible, omni-non-physical . . . and omni-quiet.
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But he loves bbq
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Every god in the Marvel Universe has its proclivities. With YHWH, it’s roast beast.
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“There certainly is a goddess,” says the goddess.
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Who am I to object what the goddess says
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The correct answer.
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God is Allah! There are no other gods but Him. I read that in a book once, so it MUST be true!!
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Who wrote that book?
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The Perfect Prophet who cannot be wrong because the book he wrote says so.
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That was a master stroke.
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Guy named Joe Momma. 🙂 (Ah, 4th grade humor!! I loves it!)
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Ah, that explains
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Actually, it’s somewhat mind-boggling that so many people take time from their day to either defend or deny the existence … or not … of such a being!
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People are tenured or make millions selling it. I think some curiosity as to why so many people take it so seriously is warranted. Besides People have been killed for not believing right
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I hope you didn’t think my comment was a criticism. It was more of an observation … and I was particularly thinking of the many, many “Christian” blogs that write reams and reams to “defend” their belief in fairy tales.
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Whenever I am so idle, I check out theist blogs. They are a treasure trove of how badly people can think
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Is there a god? If there were a God or gods, where would you find them? Think about it. We learn about this magic place when parents teach about imaginary creatures. There are many imaginary creatures in this imaginary place. But, as we soon learn, all of these creatures are not real, except to those people who become so deluded as to believe that the realm and its inhabitants are real. And, someday they will die and go there too.
Religion is, at the same time, a scam and a mental delusion. GROG
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a mental delusion — Or, as I put it recently, a “mirage of the mind.” 🙂
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Religion is both a scam and a mental illness. GROG
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Absolutely
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One of the longest running scams
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I certainly doubt there has ever been a more successful and long lasting scam than religions. GROG
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A mental virus that has certainly killed more people than CoVID or even the black plague over its reign as a pandemic
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It makes people vulnerable to other virus
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Delusion when it’s an individual is madness when it’s masses it’s a religion
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Right, a religion is a mass delusion.
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But you are not allowed to say that in polite conversation
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True, I suppose. That is because the faithful can become violent when someone points out the truth. We’ve treated them too nicely for too long. Religion is a scam and people need to be warned. GROG
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In the fairy garden? Or out of time and space😀😀
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I would still like to see a study on what evolutionary purpose it has served and is it simply to divide us, create groups and strife and therefore wars and killings to limit population?
Just an added thing to natural disease, other wars that aren’t religiously motivated, accidents, crime etc.?
And yet with all of that, we are still over populated.
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Helped in groups I guess. The Spaniards when they went to rape Mexico, the church was with them. The unchurched were not people deserving of dignity
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Certainly helped with the Crusades
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Still helping the Islamic crusades led by Isis and others though they say theirs are political and economic ends
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There are always political and economic ends. Religion just justifies, excuses, and inspires the violence.
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and unites the people. fighting for our god is a good excuse to commit atrocities
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I also think (ha) that people have invented gods and religion as a means to fill their extreme need to believe in an afterlife, regardless of what their particular god looks like, does, lives, or where he/she/it came from.
They want to feel they are right and will have a special place with other like minded people, same color, same beliefs, same culture, who have followed various rules and have been allowed access to live out their new lives, in utter boredom and mindless monotony for eternity. For it would surely come to that- a fate worse than death.
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They will be singing hallelujah for all eternity. Honey and milk will be flowing from taps- don’t ask about allergies- but most importantly, there will be no sex!
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And streets paved of gold, no WiFi, no sports, no TV other than worship services
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Heaven was made to appeal to a type of individual- poor, miserable and unimaginative. Why would gold be important or of great value where people frolic with the angels?
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OH YES! That part about “like minded people, same color, same beliefs, same culture” is soooo right-on! Odds are the True Believers™ never consider they will be keeping company with the church members down the street that are soooo radical! Or those black people that worship in the church across town. They probably think it will just be the folks that are members of their particular denomination.
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A different church you say? How can they go to heaven? They must get some doctrine wrong
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It is those who are letting on about the possibility of a higher being (we cannot use the word exist, because that would imply reality) who are most unsure and insecure about their beliefs. So they are under constant obligation and need to reaffirm their tenuous position with endless demands on others to test the strength of their conviction.
They are perpetual acting out the characteristics of the doubting Thomas!
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Apologists are creative in coming out with new apologia for why their god is never found
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You often read them write one cannot have a worldview without borrowing from theirs! What arrogance
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It’s real simple God’s were humans that no longer exist. There shouldn’t be a trying to convince people their isn’t a God, because we all sense there is a source from were all life comes from. What we need is to show people the lies that religion tells us about humanity.
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we all sense there is a source from were all life comes from
Really? ALL of us? Hmmm.
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Yes, all of us. No need to get angry about it.
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Not angry. But when you make a general statement as you did, you’re going out on a limb and someone is bound to come along with a saw. 🙂
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Why is it so horrible to know their is a source to life? It is because God comes to mind as being the source? I said nothing about God being the source of life.
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So ultimately, you are mouthing vague platitudes that don’t add anything to the conversation? Why does there have to be a personified “source”? Cannot life simply be a rare, fragile, emergent reality of a universe that is vast and ancient beyond our hope of comprehensive? Talking about “a source” doesn’t really do much for me. I can experience awe and amazement without needing a Celestial Dictator to “explain” it all.
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You don’t know what the source is. Think of the one thing that can’t be created and can’t be destroyed that is the Universe.
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Other religious believers wouldn’t agree with you that gods are their dead relatives.
And Nan is right, you are wrong in assuming all sense there is a source from where life comes from
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It’s not assuming there is a source from where life comes from. If we all didn’t sense a source from where life comes from we wouldn’t question how did we get here.
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You are incorrect. The two have no connection. While humans may question their genesis, they do NOT all consider it to be from some “source” — as you are obviously referencing.
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That is a belief some humans are getting into these days, because they are angry with religious beliefs.
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Your reasoning abilities need some work.
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Look miss pissy. Believe it or not there is a source to life. If there wasn’t we wouldn’t exist. The Universe wouldn’t exist. Your angry with religious beliefs is robbing you from learning the truth about yourself.
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Hmmm. It appears you also have some anger issues.
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Don’t give that bullshit. Your response showed anger towards the truth. The sun is the source of life on Earth. The water is another source for life on Earth. Everything has a source that gives life. Can you think about this without imagining an angry God as the source? Look to science if you want too so you will see what source gives you life.
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Every time people have insisted they have absolute truth, like you think you do, they have been intolerant to other viewpoints and killed in the process.
Everything here includes rocks and sand dunes or do you have exceptions?
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You are stuck in an old history book. You are angry over what the bible and the preacher’s are telling people. Forget about those lost in the past who are to afraid to question their religious beliefs.
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Interestingly, I found it to be just the opposite. It’s the religious who refuse to question their beliefs, whereas the non-believer looks at all aspects and makes an informed decision.
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I said the religious are afraid to question their beliefs. Most people where raised in the religion of the parents that is why most people don’t make an informed decision.
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Why speak of some mythical source then? Nobody here denies the reality that the sun provides the energy that made life possible (here at least). The problem is your use of vague terminology and mumbo jumbo (“the source” are you a failed screenwriter for a Matrix movie?) and then your rather pissy response when called on it.
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Your response is pissy. The common thing with you ex-Christian now Atheist is you anger towards indoctrination. You guys aren’t helping anyone out of the lies.
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The ambassador to truth, help us mere mortals. You the owner of all knowledge
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You claim to know science and still think there is no source to life. Think about this.
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I have not made a claim about science, at least not in this post. And I have said whether life has a beginning or not is a question we have no way of answering
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I didn’t say life had a begining.
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You said source. To be clear, what do you mean by source? Origin?
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Yes, life has a source it’s pure energy. Without pure energy nothing would have life.
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I see the science experts have no knowledge about this: Quantum physics states that mass and energy are interchangeable, and consequently that mass is merely a manifestation of energy. THE SOURCE TO LIFE IS ENERGY!!!
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I agree
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There wouldn’t be the question of where did we come from if we all didn’t sense their is a source from where all life comes from.
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That people ask a question doesn’t imply there is an answer. Because people ask how many angels can dance on a pin doesn’t mean there are angels!
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Why against this fact of there being source from where all life comes from?
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See? This is where you get off-track, ACK. It is NOT a fact. It is a BELIEF.
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It’s not a belief. Fairies, angels, gods are beliefs
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Ack has a thin line between fact and ~fiction~ myth
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More precisely, Ack has the inability to use clear language and resorts to vague mysticisms.
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That’s the mo of an insurance salesperson
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@ ACK
From your profile ….
And I shall… thank you.
I haven’t yet read this entire thread ,I prefer to start at the beginning.
1.Will you define what you understand by the term ”Gods”?
2.What evidence do you have to demonstrate the veracity of the above claim?
Thanks
Ark.
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Simple: your great ancestor is a god
Evidence: you have ancestors?
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There is a chimp who was a god?
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You have the answers if you read the whole post. God’s came in human form like Jesus did.
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I am not sure if this comment is directed at me.
Are you asserting that Jesus was a god?
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Ark, I am asserting that Jesus was a human.
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So, not a god?
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Right, not a God.
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So, who were these gods?
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They were human charismatic leaders.
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Such as whom?
Please will you give a few examples.
And do you have evidence for this?
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Put the pieces together with what I gave you. It’s really simple. We aren’t created by a being we are the creation of Pure energy that is manifested into mass.
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Okay … but I asked for examples of these gods.
Now you are appear to be vague and your comments are bordering on ‘woo’.
I’m quite happy to explore alternate views but if you cannot supply straightforward answers to questions then your credibility comes under scrutiny.
So ….
Please list a few examples.
Thanks,
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I take it you don’t know much about the myths of the God’s that is found in the religions around the world. Google human dieties and you will find a list of the God’s that claim to be God in human form. Look up Divine Rights of Kings it say Kings were called God’s. Think about the behaviors of the God of the bible you will see they are human behaviors. Think about why did humans do everything for God? If God was real he is very capable of doing his own dirty work.
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Oh, I am aware of claims, for goodness sake!
Even Augustus was claimed to be a god.
And the Egyptians had plenty.
And as you point out, there was the nonsense of Divine Right of Kings.
But I was under the impression you were making a factual assertion, that you would identify specific individuals who were actual gods in human form.
Hence my initial request for you to explain what you understood by the term gods.
But now I see that, all you seem to be doing is showing how credulous (many) people have always been when it comes to such ridiculous claims.
As to why people do ”everything for God”, well, this has been explained by sociologists and others since gods were first invented I suspect.
No big deal.
It all boils down to credulity I guess, and who wields the biggest stick.
I apologise. I really thought you were asserting that ‘gods’ live/have lived among us.
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Ark, he’s been confusing from the get-go. I think most of us interpreted his comments to be that he believed in the biblical god. Apparently not … ??
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I think you’ll find ‘he’ is a she!
🙂
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Whoops! Yes … I just looked at her gravatar.
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S’okay. You always thought I was a man, didn’t you?
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Haha
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Ha ha ha!!!!. God’s did live among us just as you said not as fictional characters like many believe they are. Keep in mind how people use to tell stories by using fiction mixed with real events. Humans made up fictional stories about real humans and real events.
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Ah … so you are asserting that gods really did live among us?
Okay, so we are back to square one.
So, to my original question.
Please identify ( by name ) a few of these individuals who were gods.
Thanks.
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Go back to your last rely where you said you know humans called themselves God’s. You answered the question you are asking me. God’s did exist among us they where humans who claimed they are God. Do understand that a supernatural being didn’t created the Universe so it didn’t create humans? Do you understand that humans who where powerful leaders said they were God? If think I have proof of a supernatural being that created the Universe and came in human form I don’t and I never implied I did.
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Many of your comments led more than one of us to believe that you were implying just that …
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Ask questions instead of jumping to conclusions
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I’m probably just getting confused as I struggle with replies that are not direct and to the point, you self admitted dreadful grammar not withstanding.
So, to clarify.
You are saying that throughout history people have claimed to be gods but in reality they were simply bullshitting.
Okay … I think I’ve got it.
Phew!
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I am saying the people who claimed to be God’s were just ordinary humans. Since all these humans are dead God’s no longer exists. There isn’t any supernatural being that created the Universe.
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Okay … so no gods. Got it.
May I ask what was the point of your extended explanation?
You could have just said this up front.
Oh. and why the capital ‘G’?
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Everyone used the capital G when talking the God the believe in.
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Yes, they do. But the topic of our/your thread is gods … plural.
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Yeah referring to all the religions around the world.
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Fair enough …
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This answer is the closest to clarity since we started this conversation. Imagine how friendly this conversation would have been were you this precise
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Why can’t a conversation be friendly in the first place? I really don’t understand why you didn’t ask if I was implying what you thought. Speak up!!!
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In the short time you have been here, you have alternated from rude to borderline insulting when such was not necessary
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You have been a sarcastic dick
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One thing you got right, for once.
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I think ack is a relation of colorstrom. Cryptic language
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Shrug … could be?
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Like Mary Edgar Baker(?) Of first Christian science or whatever her cult is called
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I agree. He plays for some team
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Muddying the waters I guess
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