on why the watchmaker argument fails


We know the contrivances of human beings whenever we see them. If I should find a bicycle assembled, I wouldn’t have to rock my head trying to discover its source. Everyone who has seen a bicycle knows to what ends they are produced and by whom. We do not have the same knowledge for things occurring in nature. I cannot tell, when I meet an elephant that there was a purposeful designer who wanted it to crash plants.

To say something happened by chance, does not rule out a designer. It could have been experiment and this result was a chance result. It was never planned.

The theist has no reason to limit the being of the universe to this

The only possible explanation for the structure is that it was designed by an intelligent being, not some random physical process.

For what is intelligence? It includes

the capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, and problem solving

many properties which would rule out the god of theism; an all knowing god can’t learn, reason nor plan. Such a god can’t be creative. We are told, for example if you believe the Abrahamic religions, that god said and it was. In a scenario such as this, the god need only wish and it is.

The question of how did the universe come to be is not made easier in supposing an intelligent designer. I could grant you a designer and ask why must we stop at one designer? If one argues from man made things to the universe, then we see that many things have components built by different people; someone a roof, someone windows and doors and another walls. So, then, we can be certain there is no contradiction in saying there is a designer for trees, another for elephants and another for fish and for all other million of things that exist.

I contend this blogger has not demonstrated his claim.

About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

120 thoughts on “on why the watchmaker argument fails

  1. Exactly. Clearly, if an “intelligence” was involved in the creation of the universe, it HAD to be more than one. One god to create stars, one to create moons, one to create water, and another to create mice. That’s how complex things are created: a combination of several individual creators come together to complete a whole thing, such as a car or high rise building. Yep! I’m convinced! Millions of gods MUST exist it it was they who created the multiverse. NOTHING else could possibly be true. Right?

    Liked by 5 people

  2. renudepride says:

    Very interesting thoughts, my Kenyan brother. But the ultimate question is: If there is an all-good, powerful deity, why didn’t he create a world where all the people were both devout believers and all-good in their lives? Then evil and other crimes would be non-existent and therefore not an issue. Naked hugs! ๐Ÿ™‚

    Liked by 1 person

  3. jim- says:

    I donโ€™t think anyone can really grasp how long this game has been played. Last year Brainyawn was using this argument with the sandcastles on the beach illustration, but no life has ever evolved in the time it takes to go to the beach. However, in geologic time their are many sandcastles that have appeared because of the wind and the waves. Just look at Moab Utah whose formations used to be in the very oceans that he was referring to. These things take millions of years yet we fail to even imagine our own lifetimes.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. john zande says:

    Give me 5 minutes to talk to him about the finer historical details and he’ll drop this foolishness.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Scottie says:

    Hello Mak. There was mention about polytheism. Was not that the standard mode of goding back in the times of the bible? I think I read that the idea was the angles were originally different gods, not servants. Of course the very notion of that now would send today’s Christians over a cliff and into a fit of apologetics. Hugs

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      Polytheism is still the standard mode of goding. Just that other would be gods have been ranked lowly and in their place they have saints and all.
      Angels, depending on who you ask are better than or not even comparable to human beings. But this depends on the weather

      Liked by 1 person

      • basenjibrian says:

        Judaism was, of course, very polytheistic in the beginning, like all the Canaanite religions. Yahweh was merely a war god. Certain prophet-politicians used reverses to the fortunes of the early Jewish peoples to propagandize for their particular deity of choice. And, back in those days, people were more likely to listen to the ranters in the public square, for some reason! Which is strange, because devoting themselves to Yahweh didn’t work out very well for them.

        Like

  6. Swarn Gill says:

    This was my response, in case he is the type to not approve responses that disagree with his thesis. ๐Ÿ™‚
    Unfortunately your argument here lies entirely on the Composition Fallacy. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/88/Fallacy-of-Composition
    Just because some subset of the universe is designed does not in anyway prove that the universe was designed.
    Even if your argument met the criteria of logic, it still would not prove there was one God as opposed to multiple Gods. It would not prove there was a personal God over a non personal one. It would not prove your particular religious doctrine is more valid than any others.
    Take 5 dice and roll them. Count how many rolls it takes to come up all 6โ€™s. For some people they might get it on the first roll, for some it maybe a 1000 rolls before this happens. The roll is random but the results seem ordered. The theist likes to claim that the result must have been designed and could not have happened randomly discount who knows how many failed random rolls of the dice it might have took to get an ordered result and claim divine intervention.This is also fallacious reasoning as it represents a false understanding of probabilities. It simply amounts to a commonly known fallacy as Cherry Picking, or Texas Sharpshooter https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

    Liked by 2 people

    • Scottie says:

      Hello wholeness123. Your problem is you assume there is a soul. There is not evidence for such a thing. No experiment, no technology, no anyone coming back that shows such a thing exists. There really is nothing to talk about. At most it is a feeling or a wish. We all know what that means. Hugs

      Like

      • wholeness123 says:

        It sounds as if you are a democracies kind of guy. One who believes in only the physical, one who believes that you have to wait for change to happen instead of making the change happen yourself. There are so many energies, spirits, colors, galaxies we cant see. If a tree falls in the forest but you were not there to see it fall, it still fell. What I write might sound inconceivable to you but that doesnt mean it is untrue. The truth lies within us, I respect your views Scottie but honestly, what do you think the voice in your head is? You know the voice that tells you “oh yeah, Darcey would love that for her birthday” or “no, you shouldn’t go down that street it seems dangerous” is intuition just a form of psychosis or Reason? The is SO much more to the world then what everyone (average humans) take it for. There is a vast continuum of knowledge and growth throughout the universe and to think that the Earth and its materialistic, & physically corrupt views is just so closed minded for me. Do you believe that your physical appearance is important? Does it make sense what we were essentially placed here on Earth randomly with no input on the body we have to live with or the state we we’re born in? Who gets to choose? Do you ever ask yourself these many questions of life? If so feel free to comment back & or you can follow my blog and I will bring up those topics. Your comments are always welcome. Thank you [PeaceLoveHappiness]

        Like

    • makagutu says:

      Why should I read your blog?

      Liked by 1 person

      • wholeness123 says:

        Well I blog about how to achieve ultimate bliss. Understanding who you are, why you are & Loving yourself entirely will teach you how to be the best version of yourself. When we love ourselves then we will be able to spread the love that we have for ourselves to others & live blissfully in our purist form.

        Like

        • makagutu says:

          Is there a place in my blog I have indicated i am chasing after ultimate bliss? Or trying to understand and love myself? In that case, your pitching your blog is not only rude but uncalled for.

          Liked by 1 person

        • Swarn Gill says:

          How could someone sharing the formula to endless Peace Love & Happiness possibly affend you? I never meant to appear rude; I just want to spread the light that is love.

          It’s offensive because it’s not what you are doing in the least. I read your blog. It’s drivel. And I know what you’re going to say I’m just one of those judgy people, but it’s not behind your back criticism, it’s to your face criticism. More than that it really is actually drivel. It’s just a fact. It doesn’t have root in reality and actually minimizes most of the very essence of what it means to be human.

          I mean let’s use your language. How is the soul supposed to grow if we have no faults? Why do we have to love ourselves completely? Why can’t we say that there are parts of us that deserve to be criticizes, that we aren’t the forces of good that we could be, and use constructive criticism from our own introspection and from others to become better?

          I mean if exponential bliss is the point, why not use drugs to get there? Why is the ultimate bliss necessary for a happy and meaningful life. I mean how pointless is the advise you give in your blog? Are you going to tell someone whose children have just died from famine, get over it…just love yourself completely? It’s utter nonsense. There are people dealing with real pain, experience real tragedies, causing real trauma. “Imagine yourself as a big ball of light”? Give me a fucking break.

          Imagine using proper punctuation, using the right ‘you’re’, ending sentences without prepositions. I mean if your going to the next cult leader pushing fluffy rhetoric at least try to sound eloquent when you do it.

          Also “you know you are completely soulless if you kill someone and feel no remorse”? Are you suggesting this is how we should check if we have a soul? Seems like a rather severe way to test that one. Feeling no remorse is a symptom of psychopathy or emotional damage through severe trauma. Is physiological condition of the brain…not a test as to whether you have a soul. Please go sell crazy some place else.

          And I know what you’re thinking…I’m sound like a really unhappy person. That couldn’t be further from the truth, but I’m human and because i spend most of my time sober I experience unhappy moments. At this moment you are the source of that unhappiness. People who think that they have all the answers are usually the ones furthest from it. If you believe in God remember to be humble, and then seek some therapy, I think it will do you good.

          Liked by 4 people

          • basenjibrian says:

            What if my bliss is eating chocolate? And my bliss leads to obesity and all of the health problems associated therein? “Drivel” is being too kind. I don’t have time for that. I waste too much time on the innertubes anyway, and I would rather spend so many hours in a week on amusing questions and sarcasm! Which our host provides! ๐Ÿ™‚

            Liked by 2 people

          • wholeness123 says:

            I apologize that my blog evokes so many negative feelings within you.

            Like

            • makagutu says:

              I don’t think you understand.
              One, your blog wasn’t related to this post. It was most likely your first comment on this blog. If you want your blog read, don’t go dropping it like dog poo on people’s blogs. Make relevant contributions to their blogs and maybe someone maybe interested in reading it.
              Going a preaching isn’t going to get you many friends

              Liked by 1 person

              • wholeness123 says:

                Thank you, that is a very helpful tip. Feel free to email me any time. I will answer your previous questions as soon as I can; Im on the road quite a bit.

                Like

              • wholeness123 says:

                Ohhh wait, I thought you were someone else. I apologize that my post affended you, thats deffinitly was Not my intention at all.
                Im just new to blogging and am often times busy. I did take the time to revise my thoughts, could you let me know what you think? Thank you
                The ultimate goal is to achieve exponential bliss and eternal happiness.
                Does that sound about right?
                Well I tell everyone the same thing, I tell them, I say “The first step is loving yourself, love every faucet of who you are. If you were jealous, a liar, a thief, a murderer you wouldn’t love those aspects of yourself unless you were soulless enough to have no remorse. Once you truely love yourself, your soul will become pure (the best version of yourself) and that will allow you the freedom to spread your love to others and really make a difference in the lives around you.

                Like

        • like every woo peddler, “wholeness123” wants to claim that s/he and only s/he has the right “formula”. And when that formula fails, s/he will blame everyone else.

          Liked by 1 person

          • wholeness123 says:

            What makes you feel this way?

            Like

            • the knowledge that you make false claims like every other nitwit who makes such claims of ultimate bliss. But wholeness123, do show us the unfailing way to “ultimate bliss”. Here and now, with no “documentaries” and no begging for money. Can you?

              Liked by 1 person

              • wholeness123 says:

                Let me ask you this, how does it feel to call people “nitwits” & slander thier individual beliefs? How does reading my blog make you feel inside? Remember, no one is better then you and your not better then anyone else. What makes you feel as though you are better then other people? I can only help the ones who want to be helped.

                Like

                • Nan says:

                  I didn’t notice anyone on this blog asking for help …

                  Like

                  • wholeness123 says:

                    What made you leave this comment?

                    Like

                    • Nan says:

                      Your comment (above) made @22:34 on 3/28/19 —
                      I can only help the ones who want to be helped.

                      Like

                    • wholeness123 says:

                      Read the comment above the one your referencing, the last two words in that comment explains why I said that. My question to you is what makes you interested?

                      Like

                    • wholeness123 says:

                      Wait. I just now read about five or six comments and thier all taking turns lol attacking my innocent beliefs of sorts (I do Not believe in religion) they are basically All crying out for help. Do you see me bashing any of you guys for saying what you feel? I could never. Hmm, Peace+Love=Happiness guys.

                      Like

                • Your beliefs are nonsense. I have no problem at all pointing that out. I would do the same with anyone who’s beliefs are harmful. some people are indeed better than others. If you are wrong, you are wrong. Reality doesn’t care how much you want to be right.

                  Again, you try to blame the victim when your claims don’t work.

                  Liked by 1 person

                  • wholeness123 says:

                    Tell me this, why would I would I blame other people when I Only spread Love because I only have Love? A saint is no better than a murderer; only their decisions are.

                    Like

                    • Nan says:

                      NEWS FLASH! You are not spreading love. Back up and try again.

                      Liked by 2 people

                    • wholeness123 says:

                      What is Love to you? Can you teach me what true love is? I would love to learn from you, I can tell by your positive comments that you have all the answers I have been searching for Nan

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      It’s not a good show to be condescending at a place where you are also a guest. We appreciate you have found bliss. Now take it, add some tomato sauce and you know the rest.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    • wholeness123 says:

                      I am not a guest. I am a soul dwelling in human perspective. I can share with you what I choose, if you choose to listen, understand, reply, learn, or grow. Is completely up to you. “You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.” -John Heywood’s. Your last sentence doesnt make any sence to me. When people say things that dont make sence or add up, it means that they are lost.

                      Like

                    • Nan says:

                      It appears you are so filled with love, you have no room for common sense. It seems pretty clear to me (and I would imagine most of Mak’s other guests) that he meant … take your “love” and get lost. You’re lucky he hasn’t banned you. I would have by now.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    • wholeness123 says:

                      The common sense you speak of only exists in this form of life because the majority of people take materialism seriously enough to let it fully define them & neglect they to realize that it is actually paper.. Peace be with you sir

                      Like

                    • keithnoback says:

                      Wait, “I am a soul dwelling in human perspective.”
                      What does that mean, exactly?

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      that fellow is impossible. So he owns my blog

                      Like

                    • keithnoback says:

                      A very eccentric performance, at any rate. You are a patient man.
                      You left out Bassekou Kouyate, I think (maybe I missed it; I’m still listening through). That was a great post anyway.

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      No, I didn’t include him or Fela Kuti some very great performers this side of the globe.
                      I don’t know how he lost his way and landed here with ultimate bliss

                      Like

                    • because there is no reason to think you are a saint.

                      Like

                    • Awaken123 says:

                      A clown is no better then a baker, a cat is no better then a dog. Your so literal club, words mean so much less then the intent behind them. This conversation is over, all your looking for is an argument or a debate, I only reply with helpful concept; it seems to anger you so I will reply no longer. May Peace be with you. Thank you for your engagement & perspective.

                      Like

                    • and more woo nonsense that awaken13 has made up to feel superior to others and play pretend that s/he has some special knowledge about the universe. Yawn.

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      You are so patient, Club

                      Like

                    • Hardly. ๐Ÿ™‚ I find these nitwits to be cat toys.

                      Like

                    • makagutu says:

                      My patience runs out at some point

                      Like

          • makagutu says:

            club, you don’t want ultimate bliss?

            Liked by 1 person

            • now what would that actually be? ๐Ÿ™‚ It’s the usual false promises of someone who wants people to think that they are important and know secrets of the universe. Ultimate bliss would be getting rid of these liars.

              Liked by 1 person

              • wholeness123 says:

                Getting rid of implys physical death… Of the people that want to spread love..? Lol okay club

                Like

                • No, it doesn’t imply “physical death” at all. But nice try to make nonsense up again, W. Playing the martyr, I see. And again, you aren’t spreading love. You are trying to spread false claims. You want to hide behind the idea of “love”.

                  Like

                • it’s always very interesting when someone likes, e.g. approves of my post when it shows that they are wrong.

                  Like

                  • wholeness123 says:

                    Oh Club, your so smart. I like all of your posts because I respect your feeling even though you slander mine. I only spread love, spreading love, & good intent brings me happiness. What you give out into the world is what you get back. For example, if you are honking at someone on the highway, what are you most likely going to get back? Retaliation, anger, honks back with disgust. I know its hard for most average minded people to understand (just know that it is okay because you can possibly know something that you have never been taught.) But I work on the complete unheard of part of the spectrum with Peace & Love. Just because You didnt see the tree fall in the woods doesn’t mean that it didn’t fall. Isnt it a bit narcissistic to think that way?

                    Like

                    • Lying is not respecting anyone. You keep trying convince yourself and others you have the “right” answers. And it’s always good to see someone like you claim that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is only “average minded”. And please do provide evidence of this “tree” falling. You can, right?

                      Like

          • wholeness123 says:

            For example, im making this documentary right now.
            The ultimate goal is to obtain exponential bliss and eternal happiness. Does that sound about right?
            I tell everyone the same thing, I tell them, I say “The first step is loving yourself, love every faucet of who you are. If you were jealous, a liar, a thief, a murderer you wouldn’t love those aspects of yourself unless you were soulless enough to have no remorse. Once you truely love yourself, your soul will become pure (the best version of yourself) and that will allow you the freedom to spread your love to others and really make a difference in the lives around you.” Try giving Compliments instead of criticism and see how you feel.

            Like

            • This is the same woo nonsense peddled by many. The wiggle words of “truly” shows that you will always blame the person trying your claim who fails. And I feel just fine criticizing nonsense that is false and can cause people to think they’ve failed when what failed is the baseless promises made.

              Like

  7. shelldigger says:

    They never demonstrate their claims. They assert, they wave thier hands, they claim to have demonstrated their claims, but it’s the same old shit every time.

    I kept waiting for your snake oil salesman to offer up a cure all tonic for only $19.95 ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Liked by 2 people

  8. basenjibrian says:

    wholeness123 says: What makes you feel this way?

    Long standing experience with the peddlers of fuzzy nonsense.

    Liked by 1 person

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