On stupidity and evidence


The author of the post in her generosity sought to teach atheists some basic facts. She writes

They (and all atheists fall into this category) make the claim that objective truth does not exist (everything is relative.) And by doing so, guess what? They are making a truth claim – that truth does not exist.

Maybe some atheists argue this but it would be more right to say all TRUTH, whatever truth maybe is subjective. Matters of fact, for which the claim a god exists are such that a negation doesn’t involve a contradiction. There is no contradiction in the statement there is no god. So that the argument? below

  • Everything is relative
  • Man is the result of evolution
  • There is no God

which is first poorly constructed with all unrelated premises do not imply a contradiction.

Answering none to the two challenges below

That truth absolutely exists, or that you there is definitely, absolutely no transcendent source of truth?

also do not lead to a contradiction. I am afraid this theist need more education in logic than he/ she realizes.

I may add that the glass of water example she uses doesn’t give support to her thesis. Without prior knowledge that what is in the glass is water and it is portable, there is no way one could, through reason alone, come to the conclusion the author is claiming.

This loving christian tells us

One Atheist said that he’d be sorely disappointed if he found God to be real.

and I want to meet this atheist. I, too, would be very disappointed. The goddites tell us their god is all powerful, all loving and all-knowing and we have babes raped, people bombed in the name of god and omnipresence and omnibenovelence does zilch. If you are not disappointed, there is definitely something the matter with you.

Our good christian tells us we shouldn’t ask for evidence. God is hiding because he loves us. He writes

However, over the years, I’ve come to realize it’s because of His love for them that He remains silent when this question is asked.

and you realize a person will believe anything they can convince themselves is true regardless of what reason would dictate in a similar scenario. I am sure this apologist would not take my word for it if I told him there is a beautiful woman, who I haven’t seen or met nor talked but I know loves him. He would call me a liar or worse and here he is telling us, an imaginary being is hidden because he loves us so much!

The arrogance and ignorance some apologists display leave me asking which planet did they come from. Lucas writes

What began the movement to disprove God and believe in something that is unfavorable? (i.e. death is the end, life is meaningless, etc.) I believe this comes from the view of Christianity being a law giving system, rather than a relationship.

and I ask has he had of Solon, Lycurgus, Buddha, Confucius and other law givers of antiquity. And why would anyone think asking questions about the gods started with Christianity? Is their knowledge so limited?

And if, as Lucas says, we are broken, it is not our making. We cannot be expected to be better than we were made. The responsibility to change us lies with the maker, if there was one.

As I have said many times, if theists want to write about atheism, it is better to get to know what it is and we believe or do not before venturing to make a fool of oneself.

Happy weekend everyone.

 

 

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About makagutu

As Onyango Makagutu I am Kenyan, as far as I am a man, I am a citizen of the world

127 thoughts on “On stupidity and evidence

  1. archaeopteryx1 says:

    I may add that the glass of water example she uses doesn’t give support to her thesis.” – So you’re saying that it doesn’t hold water —

    Liked by 4 people

  2. shelldigger says:

    Again we have dullard creobots deciding what an atheist might be.

    Attention all creationist dip squirts! You do not get to define that which you can’t show you understand. If you understood anything about being an atheist, you would not be a dumbass creationist.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. David K says:

    That person has 241 “reasons” on their blog. Most of them are horribly flawed. #28 starts with “A-theism literally means against God, which suggest that it is a belief that God does not exist. This immediately creates a logical conundrum of having the burden of proof of a negative – something that doesn’t exist. Peculiarly, to believe that something does not exist, gives some credence to the ‘something’ that atheists are not prepared to concede. ” but atheists did not say “there is no god” before someone said “there is a god”. Logic is flawed!

    Liked by 1 person

  4. ladysighs says:

    I see evidence of stupidity. (not yours) 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  5. archaeopteryx1 says:

    Lucas writes

    “What began the movement to disprove God”

    There was never a movement to disprove any gods, only a movement to persuade their adherents to provide evidence that they exist.

    Colorstorm, for example, maintains that Life is proof of god, while I contend that Life is proof of abiogenesis. Once he proves his god exists, I may be persuaded to amend my opinion – until then —

    Like

  6. There is a truth I believe to be self-evident and flawlessly accurate: Christian apologists are idjits. True, unadulterated idjits.

    Like

  7. john zande says:

    Is their knowledge so limited?

    Rhetorical question, right?

    Like

  8. David K says:

    As far as I can see, that blog does not allow others to comment. It would be great to be able to engage in a debate.

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      David, let me tell you for free, there are those you try to engage with you will want to bang your head against the wall. And it is good she has disabled comments

      Like

  9. “However, over the years, I’ve come to realize it’s because of His love for them that He remains silent when this question is asked.”

    Because, you know, that all loving people are assholes and ignore the questions of their loved ones. Oh shucks, did I show that the claims of Christians are nonsense? Darn 🙂

    Like

  10. Lucas M says:

    Interesting. Can I ask a question? Say God did appear, and I had evidence, would you be willing to repent from your sins and follow Him?

    Like

    • makagutu says:

      Why would I do such a backward thing? What makes you think a god would want to be worshipped? And what sin are you talking about? You really are deluded

      Like

    • archaeopteryx1 says:

      Say God did appear, and I had evidence, would you be willing to repent from your sins and follow Him?

      My first interest, Lucas, would be ‘which god?’ – humankind has invented thousands of them.

      Secondly, “sins” are a religious concept – I don’t accept that such things exist – there are things which benefit Humanity and things which harm it, and that, for me, defines right and wrong, but “sins” are someone else’s idea of right and wrong.

      But I have always maintained that atheism is best defined as there being insufficient evidence that a god or gods exist, so if you have some, by all means trot it out.

      Liked by 1 person

      • makagutu says:

        Arch, it is not obvious that a god would desire any of the things Lucas claims. He would have to tell us how he knows the god demands anything from us

        Like

      • Lucas M says:

        Jesus Christ is the God I’m talking about. We have invented thousands of gods in order to fill that spiritual void created by our turning from Christ. I wrote a post about this void on my blog if you want to read more on the subject.
        If sin offends you, we don’t have to call it that. But I would like to ask a question. God is a just judge, a holy judge who can’t partake in ANY wrongdoing (it’s why He flooded the world, to destroy evil). You don’t believe in sin, however take the words Jesus spoke, “He whoever looks at a man with hate and anger has already committed murder in his heart.” Jesus looks at the heart of man, not his actions. Now, what would you give when you stand before God on judgement day? What offering? Of course you have done good, but does a judge let a murderer go because of the good he’s done?
        On evidence, I recommend you read my entire post.

        Like

        • carmen says:

          Ahhh. . . now we get to the thrust of Lucas’ visit here, Mak. He’s drumming up hits for his blog post. . yawn. .
          P.S. Lucas – (a) god didn’t flood the world – it didn’t happen at all, and different gods were created in different parts of the world – you happen to have lived in a part of the world where the familiar god is the christian one. And yes, there are people who believe that even murderers get a ‘second’ chance, just by asking forgiveness; no matter how heinous their crimes. As for real hard evidence for any of your suggestions, I doubt you have any; you can’t have any because it doesn’t exist. It never has.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Lucas M says:

            That could be the reason :p haha. I don’t want to crowd this place with my comments because they can never satisfy the thirst for answers everyone has here. I recommend this site http://answersforatheists.com/ for anyone interested in exploring things further. An atheist, like a Christian, can only be taken seriously if they have some serious research behind them, at least imo. I actually live in Australia, where religion of all kinds is sparse. My worldview has come from years of experience and research, so it’s not something I blindly believe in, I’ve given a lot of thought into it.
            God bless 🙂

            Like

          • With true study comes knowledge. The knowledge that there is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is His Prophet. There is no Holy Book but the Qur’an. In it, you will see truth, if truth is what you truly seek. From the Book: “The God will say: ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind ‘Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?’ ‘Glory to You, ‘he will answer, ‘how could I ever say that to which I have no right?” (Surah 5:114-) Once you open your mind to reality through study and research, truth will come to you. If not, Hell awaits you for you are an infidel and blind to reality. AWAKE, Oh, christian! AWAKE, to God’s TRUE WORD: The Qur’an!

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            I will have to convert to the one true religion. Do you think golden boot believers will be spared?

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          • They will be hired as muscle to kick the arses of christians into seeing the light of reason.

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            That is a fine thing. I will volunteer

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            When do I start

            Like

          • Tonight. 11PM your time.

            Like

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            I actually live in Australia, where religion of all kinds is sparse. My worldview has come from years of experience and research” – Interestingly, Peter, who also contributes here, is also from Australia, where he was a practicing youth minister. Through his ‘years of experience and research,‘ Peter has arrived at exactly the opposite worldview.

            I don’t want to crowd this place with my comments because they can never satisfy the thirst for answers everyone has here.” – Well, if you can’t satisfy it here, you can’t satisfy it anywhere else. Maybe if you poured a little ‘living water’ on them —

            In other words, you’re coming on here, essentially taunting us with your claim that you can prove your god exists, then running back to your blog, and we’re supposed to follow you there. Never gonna happen. If you have something to prove, you can prove it here.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Lucas M says:

            Yeah, that was a stupid thing to say on my part. Apologies. You don’t have to follow me anywhere, it was simply a recommendation to read all I have to say, rather than single quotes out of context. The question I asked in the beginning linked directly to the context of my post, as the writer failed to point out. I wanted to make my position clear for anyone reading who didn’t have a solid grip on the matter. The post was not about proving God exists, but about turning from sinful patterns into a holy relationship. Once the willingness to follow and obey is seen, God will reveal Himself. The example I gave is that, if a woman loved me, but I didn’t want to offer her a single part of My life, would she give herself to me? The point I was making is that we don’t want God. We don’t want to turn from selfish ways to sacrifice. As our hearts don’t want God, any evidence He gives (and has given) will be explained away, and if it can’t, they’ll retreat to something along the lines of, “Science will have an answer for that someday, so I’m not going to believe it’s God.” In the end, to one who has decided in his heart to reject God completely, even if He shows Himself to be real, any attempt to provide evidence will be futile and will be rejected. It’s why I didn’t provide evidence here as there’s no point. If one can’t explain it away, they’ll use the quote above. I hope this clears things up.
            Blessings 🙂

            Like

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            Oh, it clears things up alright, but when you begin with the phrase, “If I could prove that God exists….,” I’m sure that you can see where there might be those who would expect you to do that. You seem to be saying that the way the plan works, is that you first believe in your god, THEN he proves that he/she/it exists – yeah, well, see, that’s just not the way that intelligent minds work, at least not in the 21st Century.

            “God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance, that gets smaller and smaller as time goes on.”
            — Neil Degrasse Tyson —

            ‘Bye-‘bye, Lucas.

            Like

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            I’m a little confused, Lucas, as to just how much research you did. You mentioned that the world-wide flood cleansed the earth of evil, so obviously your “research” did not make you aware that such a global flood has never happened, that the biblical flood was a plagiarization of the actual Mesopotamian flood that occurred about 300 years before the character “Noah” was alleged to have existed, when the Euphrates River overflowed its banks to a depth of 15 cubits (22.5 feet), and covered an area about the size of three counties.

            Clearly your research has not taught you that Moses did not write the first five books of the Old Testament, and in fact, likely never existed as no evidence of the Exodus has ever been found.

            And you seem not to know that the four gospel authors wrote entirely anonymously, so we have no idea who they were, but we DO know when they wrote, and the first to write, wrote a full 40 years after the alleged death of Yeshua (Jesus) – (for whose existence there is also no evidence) – the rest of the gospels were written even later, with the last of those being written around 100 CE – none of the four authors ever met Yeshua and other than writing down hearsay stories, have no idea what he said or did, or even if he existed or not.

            I get the impression, since you seem not to be aware of any of those established facts, that your ‘research‘ could not have been very thorough. Maybe a nice, long walkabout would be in order.

            Like

          • Lucas M says:

            I research mostly theology and atheistic beliefs and arguments, however I haven’t yet gone further than that (i.e. other religions and biblical scholarship) I will definitely be researching those next.
            A few examples of the places I’ve read are such: https://jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/

            http://answersforatheists.com/

            http://www.everystudent.com/
            This one is written by a former atheist.
            I’ve also been deciding on theological study courses such as these: https://connect.ligonier.org/library/categories/all/

            Like

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            I suspect, Lucas, that you have little idea how the Bible came to be, who wrote it and when, and where they got their stories.

            I might suggest you begin here: http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com, just to get your feet wet, so to speak.

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            Maybe he could read the Mistakes of Moses by Ingersoll for entertainment and the Age of Reason by Paine

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            You call this research? So if I said I read answers in Genesis, you would call that research into christianity?
            The former atheist trope, I like that, really do. They always come to Jesus, not Allah, not Krishna but just the religion of their neighbours. You don’t find it curious?

            Like

          • Lucas M says:

            Well, I did read evolution books in school if that counts as well 🙂 Like I said, theology is what I mostly study. The likes of C.S. Lewis, John Calvin, Martin Luther, R.C. Sproul, Smith Wigglesworth, those types are my favourites. Those rich with theological depth.

            I’m not sure if there’s a bias towards sites that are Christian from you, so if I could ask a question, if I read a similar type site that was written by an atheist, would that count as research?

            The problem I have with both parties (Christian and atheist) is that they’re objective (more-so with the atheist) is to both debunk and dethrone each other. It’s a never ending battle, with both sides proclaiming they’re right and have the answer. Sometimes atheists turn, sometimes, as with that Peter fellow another commenter mentioned, Christians turn. So why does one belief satisfy one, and not the other? That’t the question I’ve been exploring recently. And then of course we have atheists like Martin Lings, Charles le Gai Eaton, and Silma Ihram who turned to Islam (no, not all turn to Jesus). With this whole war going on, it seems we’ve neglected to mention why we believe what we believe. I haven’t found many atheists who actually sample all the good of being an atheist in their arguments in hopes to win some over. In defense of Christianity, we mostly talk about the good of believing what we do (salvation, redemption, etc.), however that’s not to say they’re off the hook (I’m guilty of this too) in pushing what they believe on others. It’s good for each to answer and ask legitimate questions, but it’s the “believe what I believe or else you’re deluded,” mentality present in both atheists and Christians that’s most dangerous and does more harm than good for the witness. I mean, I have family members who are atheists who shake their heads in disgust when they hear other atheists insult and mock Christians. It’s like, “Nice way to win me over,” with a sarcastic thumbs up lol.
            Now, on an entirely different matter, I must admit, I do have a problem when atheists ask Christians why they don’t believe in other gods. From here, it always sounds like you’re defending them, which is strange as you obviously don’t believe them. I mean, I appreciate the question, don’t get me wrong, however put the question in the mouth of a Muslim. “Why don’t you believe in Krishna?” I think it’s safe to say that’s an outright betrayal on his god and his faith. So why isn’t it the same for atheists? Is atheism a belief (or whatever you call it) not to be held with such certainty and dedication? If I find Jesus to be fake and found Allah to be the real god, would that ease your soul, or would you continue to ask the same question? I don’t know, I think the more fitting question would be, “Why don’t you believe in no god?” rather than defend another religion and beat around the bush. It makes one seem as if they’re not taking one’s beliefs seriously, and don’t hold them with the same dignity Muslims do. Anyway, that’s just my little rant on the matter lol! To actually answer the question, it’s because Jesus actively sought after me and convicted me of my sins. I began wanting Him after I realized I was a sinner, and He revealed Himself to me.

            Now, I can give evidence, but what I say will be roughly what the links I gave say. I have a few of own, of course, like His voice and His work around me, the ability to guide me, transform me, and touch me. He’s like the wind, you can’t see Him, but you see Him move in and around you. In intellectural terms, the atheist answer site is one of the best I’ve been reading. If you want to read them and explain why they’re wrong, I’ll be happy to hear you out 🙂
            Sorry for the long comment, but I think I’ll depart now.
            P.S. to archae, I read some of the site. It’s quite interesting indeed. However, it does nothing to deter my overall faith. Have you ever heard of a worship singer named Gungor? He recently posted that he did not believe the flood was a literal event, nor was Adam and Eve. Gungor believes fully that Jesus is real, and that He is God in the flesh, but he doesn’t take those stories literally. If you want to destroy one’s overall faith, I suggest researching the life of Jesus and debunking His existence. Also, I recommend this song (it’s not a metal song, don’t worry, it’s more akin to your tastes) by a band called Sons. It speaks from the view of one trying to destroy another’s beliefs. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sons+ghosts
            The lyrics are really thought provoking. Here they are: http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=15727
            Blessings!

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            Reading Internet sites is what I would call literature review. Do you think reading this blog would be considered research? I write a lot on religion but I would not be so quick to call it scholarly.
            No, we don’t defend those gods. We are making an inquiry on methodology.
            The doctor doesn’t tell you that he will give you a good tooth. All he does is remove the bad one. It is enough to cure you of false ideas without also promising something good.

            Like

          • Lucas M says:

            Oh ok, so what research would you recommend?

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            Depends on what you want to read on.

            Liked by 1 person

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            Oh ok, so what research would you recommend?

            Who Wrote the Bible?” – Richard Elliot Friedman
            The New Testament” – Bart Ehrman
            Forged” – Bart Ehrman
            What Did the Bible Writers Know and When Did They Know It?” – William G. Dever

            There are many more, but why list others until you’ve read those?

            Liked by 1 person

          • makagutu says:

            I was hoping he would tell us what area he wanted to research so I can know what to recommend.
            I would recommend he reads Superstition in the ages by d’Holdbach

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            And letters to Eugenia by D’Holdbach
            System of nature by D’Holdbach
            Supernatural religion by Walter r. Cassels.
            And I hope he will keep us updated on his progress

            Like

          • Lucas M says:

            Cool, I’ll check them out. I recently read an interview with Richard Elliot about the existence of the Exodus. It was really interesting. Thanks for the recommendations 🙂

            Like

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            Did you mean Richard Friedman?

            Like

          • Lucas M says:

            Oh, yes, not Richard Elliot haha!

            Like

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            Good question, Lucas: “Why don’t you believe in no god?” – because no one has presented me with evidence that one exists.

            (I think your question may have more likely been, ‘Why do you not believe in a god?’)

            Like

          • That’s because christians are atheists. They deny God and worship gibberish. Only through True Research and Deep Meditation can the christian see the Truth of Allah, but few if any, christians have the ability to learn Truth. Sad. $Amen$

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            They should first learn the direction of Mecca. Their prayers will not be heard

            Like

          • Through True research, christians can learn such Truths about Allah. Most are unwilling to learn. Sad.

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            I think research must have a different meaning to apologists

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            No Lucas. Yours is to provide the evidence. What we do with it is our problem.

            Like

          • shelldigger says:

            “Once the willingness to follow and obey is seen” Yeah…Ill get right on that /eyeroll.

            “God will reveal Himself. ” I really hope he doesnt. I am in no mood for such hilarity.

            “any attempt to provide evidence will be futile and will be rejected. ” There you have it folks.

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            I really hope he doesn’t.

            Are you suspecting the member might be disappointingly small?

            Like

          • shelldigger says:

            Well that, and the odd notion that god might be a perv flasher in the park. 🙂

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            He can even copy and paste the relevant part of the evidence. We don’t want links

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            Lucas, you should count yourself lucky. We are not about to run you over. Just give us the evidence we will consider it. You can write it in point form, not necessarily prose.
            You have researched! Now you are my kind of guy

            Like

          • makagutu says:

            He has evidence but we must plough through his blog to find it. How clever of him.

            Like

        • archaeopteryx1 says:

          Lucas, you came over here and asked your question. I will not be visiting your blog – if you want to bring your evidence here, I’ll gladly discuss it with you on this blog where you don’t have the power to delete, censor, or ban commenters.

          …take the words Jesus spoke, ‘He whoever looks at a man with hate and anger has already committed murder in his heart.’” – How do you know that Yeshua spoke those words?

          Like

        • makagutu says:

          And you don’t think Jesus is invented?
          What criteria did you use to disqualify Apollo, Minerva, Juno, Krishna and all other thousands of humanities gods?
          How big was the void you had? Could it have also been filled with cold reason or woo is what was missing in your life?

          Like

  11. keithnoback says:

    Pretty simplistic misrepresentation of truth theories by that individual. It only holds if one accepts the terms of the absolutist’s formulation of truth in the first place. And of course, that’s precisely what’s at issue.
    Meh, you can’t swat all the gnats, and most of them will go through their lives without troubling anyone, or being troubled by such concerns. Best to smile, nod, and move on.

    Like

  12. Peter says:

    They (and all atheists fall into this category) make the claim that objective truth does not exist (everything is relative.) And by doing so, guess what? They are making a truth claim – that truth does not exist.

    This is the level of argument I expect from B grade apologists, those like Josh Feuerstein and Sye Ten Bruggencate.

    It is an argument that proves nothing. But clever argument proves nothing. If what the Bible says is not true then if there is a God it is not the one these people worship.

    Like

  13. Lucas M says:

    Mak, I can’t seem to reply to your comments, so I’ll thank you here for the recommendations for research 🙂

    Like

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